FatherMithras

So what? Ignorance needs to be halted. If we just told people that life was perfect and that no one ever got murdered or raped, it'd make them feel better too. THE TRUTH is more important than making people comfortable by letting them believe stupid fairy tale bullshit.

RUmike

Thank you, Pyros. These are exactly my two arguments against hell.

As to (1), I can't possibly see how an infinitely good God will punish his children on account of their opinion. Because afterall, that's all belief is -- an opinion. Would you in a million years imprison, burn, or torture another man on account of his religious belief? Yet many believe that their God will do that very same thing, and somehow have no qualms about it. Apparently, you have some at least minor issue with it, though, or else you wouldn't have mentioned it.

As to (2), you're right: Part of justice means that the punishment fits the crime. How can punishing a person eternally for a finite crime be considered justice? And isn't it beyond absurd that this tiny little flash of existence called "life" be used as some sort of probationary state, that the little time spent here decides the fate of a human soul forever? Why wouldn't God let his children repent and become righteous after death? What's the purpose of hell if it is absolutely impossible for the person to reform?

Vorkosigan

Roger, fear of hell doesn't work. It is part of the system of authority and control that Christianity uses to inscribe itself on the hearts of its believers. As an authoritarian belief it is inherently evil.

Look around you. The prisons are full of Christians, not atheists. It's the Christian areas of my nation that have the worst public and private behavior: high rates of crime and violence, high suicide rates, low teacher pay, environmental protection, and social welfare, etc. Apparently your thesis doesn't work, for Hell is not a deterrant unless one believes that one is going there. Yet, as a survey I saw last year from Barna pointed out (and other surveys as well) nobody actually believes they are going there. Hell is always for other people.

And that, Roger, shows its true function. The purpose of Hell isn't to punish the guilty, but allow Christians to feel they belong to an exclusive club. A recent news story pointed out that a popular Christian preacher with a massive megachurch started preaching universalism. His congregation disappeared, his Church went bankrupt and is now in receivership, and his fellow ministers branded him a heretic. Hell does not exist to punish, Roger. It exists to give Christians the feeling that they are God's chosen and everyone else is scum. Christianity is just schaedenfreude on a galactic scale.

Yes, we all the victims of your sick, human-hating religion, Roger, believers and unbelievers alike. For watching the theocrats tear my country apart, the evils of having a populace bred to belief in authority, exclusivist and eliminationist thinking, and hating everything that is progressive, loving, tolerant, open, and forward-looking, are quite obvious. Phlox Pyros keeps looking at decoversion as a purely personal issue. But it is not. Deconversion not only saves the person deconverted, but has positive benefits for society, in that it brings people back into the democratic fold, at least potentially, as well as prevents them from converting others to pernicious, nihilistic authority beliefs, with their concommittent hatred of human freedom and progress.

Vorkosigan

Phlox Pyros

What is "The Truth"?

Phlox Pyros

Someone needs to ask that of our country's jail system as well....lol

Phlox Pyros

Here, again, is the replacement crutch and rationalization of one's own personal views.

Just as mentioned earlier, the others beliefs are condemned in strong and hateful language, while one's own personal beliefs are put on a pedestal as being loving, tolerant, open, etc.

I can't be the only one who sees the irony, here, can I? Aren't you, Vorkosigan, acting the same toward religion as you believe it is acting toward you? This reminds me of the errors of Christian fundamentalism, only in reverse.

It is a personal issue, because when it comes down to it, we die alone.

Amaleq13

I would think so since "certainty" (ie total absence of doubt) requires faith.

Could you provide an example of what you consider to be an "irrational" leap?

Iskander

.

God is an invitation to choose what to believe and it is nothing more than this.

God places no restrictions on what to believe and it does not matter whether the believer is a member of an “approved” corporation or John Doe. Our understanding of God does not even require the affirmation of its existence; it is sufficient not to exclude the possibility of his existing.

Humanity has been creating gods for thousands of years, each one of them comes with his personalised curriculum vitae and psychological profile and the impressive support of the Government of the day

Each one of us, every single individual has the freedom to choose an understanding of God that satisfies his personal spiritual longing. Accepting the invitation to choose what to believe makes God free from human control, at last one God capable of doing his job without human interference!!


Punishment after death is a man-made story to control God for material gain here on earth. The concept of hell makes God a prisoner of man for someone decides for Him what it should be done when we die and what causes offence .

Vorkosigan

PP, if we were discussing Communism, or Fascism, or some other hateful authoritarian belief, we'd be in agreement. You'd have no objection to described Naziism as anti-human. But one of the interesting things about our culture is that Christianity has managed to get itself a cultural status that is different from other authority beliefs. There's no substantive difference between Christianity and any other system of authority and control such as Communism or Islam. The difference between us is that I recognize that and you don't. Instead, you mistake your own inability to recognize the issues as a problem that I have.

And yes, when something hates you and wants to stamp you out (what is the ultimate goal of Christianity, PP? Isn't it to eliminate atheism and instantiate itself in every living mind on earth? How is that different than Nazism or Communism?) your response to it can ethically take many forms. I hate Christianity because I hate all forms of authoritarianism -- for the same reason that I hate the KMT, the Communist Party, Naziism, Fascism, corporatism, and every other manifestation of the need of Some to control the minds of Others.

No, it's not a personal issue. At the moment the theocracy is hard at work in the US undermining democratic values and remaking our secular government. Deconversion is one strategy among many that can be used to fight this. Other people may believe as they wish, but the moment their beliefs translate to actions that become inimical to democratic practice, then they must be stopped. The hardest thing that reflexively loving and tolerant people such as myself and yourself have is recognizing when other things are a threat to those values, and mobilizing. It is difficult enough to do this when opposed by a well-organized and funded anti-democracy movement located in Christianity, but it is impossible when certain atheists think they are superior to their fellows because they have smugly decided that there is no threat. I don't care if you don't want to take action as your democracy disappears, PP, but stay out of the way of those of us who do.

Vorkosigan

Iskander

I love Christians