Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 04-13-2012, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

So is there a source that demonstrates anything definitively?

It seems to be the common understanding among scholars. If you google it, you'll find lots.

I agree with your main point that nothing Christ said about himself was foreign to Judaism. Indeed, what got him into hot water was arrogating to himself all the highest figures in that culture. I'm sure that that the ruling elites would have had no trouble in finding him blasphemous on this score.

You might be interested in a new work entitled, The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ, by Daniel Boyarin:

Guiding us through a rich tapestry of new discoveries and ancient scriptures, The Jewish Gospels makes the powerful case that our conventional understandings of Jesus and of the origins of Christianity are wrong. In Boyarin’s scrupulously illustrated account, the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts. Jesus, moreover, was embraced by many Jews as this person, and his core teachings were not at all a break from Jewish beliefs and teachings. Jesus and his followers, Boyarin shows, were simply Jewish. What came to be known as Christianity came much later, as religious and political leaders sought to impose a new religious orthodoxy that was not present at the time of Jesus’s life.

eta: Nice summation, Rick.

dog-on · 04-13-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Thanks, I had forgotten about the centurion. One thing right off the bat he has in common with the Syrophenician woman is that they're both Gentiles. That would suggest that they play into Mark's narrative of the Jews not recognizing who Jesus was, even when Gentiles (Mark's audience) can see it.

Agreed.

Now, who do the "gentiles" believe Jesus is?

Vorkosigan · 04-13-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Mark has Jesus being temporarily possessed by the Holy Spirit, and says he did all his tricks "in the power of the spirit," so I presume that when he's recognized by demons, they're recognizing the spirit.

I've never thought to take an inventory of everyone who recognizes him, though. Do you happen to know offhand who all recognizes Jesus' identity in Mark.

Besides demons, there is obviously the Roman centurian at the crucifixion at 15:9 and arguably the Syrophonecian woman at 7:24.

That's an interesting question, clearly one I haven't thought about enough. Is this a recognition?

""10:35: And James and John, the sons of Zeb'edee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36: And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 37: And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.""

Vorkosigan

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-13-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Thanks, I had forgotten about the centurion. One thing right off the bat he has in common with the Syrophenician woman is that they're both Gentiles. That would suggest that they play into Mark's narrative of the Jews not recognizing who Jesus was, even when Gentiles (Mark's audience) can see it.

Agreed.

Now, who do the "gentiles" believe Jesus is?

Apparently those two Gentiles recognized that he had the Holy Spirit in him, i.e. that he was the adopted "son of God." In fact, that's exactly what the Centurion says at the cross.

dog-on · 04-13-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Besides demons, there is obviously the Roman centurian at the crucifixion at 15:9 and arguably the Syrophonecian woman at 7:24.

That's an interesting question, clearly one I haven't thought about enough. Is this a recognition?

""10:35: And James and John, the sons of Zeb'edee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36: And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 37: And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.""

Vorkosigan

In the case of the disciples, the story seems to be Jesus stuffing his identity down their throats leading to the disciples inevitable indigestion. They get it for a minute, but can't seem to hold on to it for some reason.

dog-on · 04-13-2012, 08:24 AM

Adopted?

Are you putting words in Mark's mouth DC? The centurion simply says that, surely, he was the son of God.

Quote:

38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,[c] he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-13-2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Besides demons, there is obviously the Roman centurian at the crucifixion at 15:9 and arguably the Syrophonecian woman at 7:24.

That's an interesting question, clearly one I haven't thought about enough. Is this a recognition?

""10:35: And James and John, the sons of Zeb'edee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36: And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 37: And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.""

Common custom for students and teachers. The "right hand/left hand" thing was normal social protocol.

The "in your glory" part is τῇ δόξῃ σου. The primary meaning of doxa is not "glory" (though it can mean that figuratively), but "judgement," or "regard."

There's nothing in these words that wouldn't be normative for students appealing to be taught by a perceived teacher or master.

aa5874 · 04-13-2012, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Furthermore, the Priests could have stoned Jesus for religious crimes themselves if they wanted.

Under the Romans, the Jews did not have authority to carry out capital sentences.

Do you have a solid cite for this? I've had difficulty ever researching a definitive answer on this. The Gospels say the Sanhedrin couldn't execute criminals, but I've never seen anything else to support that. Josephus says that James (whether he was "brother of the so-called Christ or not) was executed by the High Priest, and Acts says Paul was present at the stoning of Stephen (only a year or two after the crucifixion in Gospel chronology.

So is there a source that demonstrates anything definitively?

In Josephus Antiquities of the Jews the Sanhedrin was assembled WITHOUT the authority of Albinus and the High Priest was DEPOSED after the Jews made appeals to Abinus and Agrippa.

By the way, Acts of the Apostles is NOT a credible source and cannot be PRESUMED to be writing about actual events.

Why is Paul present at events for which there is NO corroboration???

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-13-2012, 08:52 AM

I'm not presuming anything, I'm commenting on a story, and what the author means with his language.

If I'm telling somebody what "show me the money" means, that doesn't mean I think Jerry Maguire is real.

dog-on · 04-13-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Adopted?

Are you putting words in Mark's mouth DC? The centurion simply says that, surely, he was the son of God.

He says that right after Mark says the Holy Spirit left Jesus, and the centurion says "was" in the past tense.

Mark has also made it clear in other ways that Jesus is adopted (the Spirit enters him at the baptism and leaves him on the cross).

Do you think that Mark intended to tell us that the centurion recognized Jesus' "sonship" to God differently than Mark himself has told us that meant?

I agree that Mark is adoptionist, but regarding the centurion's comment in the story, past tense seems to be the usual way you refer to someone once they are dead.

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04-13-2012, 08:52 AM	#129
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I'm not presuming anything, I'm commenting on a story, and what the author means with his language. If I'm telling somebody what "show me the money" means, that doesn't mean I think Jerry Maguire is real.

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