Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 01-07-2005, 01:42 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/progra...m_wright.shtml

NT Wright says :-

'But for the Ancient Jew, heaven is not another place within our cosmos - upstairs somewhere. Heaven is another dimension of present reality, so that for instance if you went to the temple it wasn't as if you were in heaven. They really believed you were in heaven because the temple was the place within our geography which overlaps with God's geography, as it were.'

Jews didn't think Heaven was upstairs 'somewhere'? They thought of Heaven as another dimension of present reality, and not something you could reach by ascending from our cosmos, as presumably Elijah did, and as some thought Moses did?

01-07-2005, 01:53 PM

This is a very common theme among liberal Christians. To them, the "Kingdom of God" is not a place. It's an ideal. It's something that they create in the present with peace and justice. Now to most Christian fundementalists, this Kingdom is God's domain. A place in which they will join him in body. They don't give a shit about peace and justice.

Not exactly an answer to your question, by my two cents.

Clivedurdle · 01-07-2005, 03:06 PM

That makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder if Marx has effected this liberal christian tradition,

Quote:

2.1 On The Jewish Question

In this text Marx begins to make clear the distance between him and that of his radical liberal colleagues among the Young Hegelians; in particular Bruno Bauer. Bauer had recently written against Jewish emancipation, from an atheist perspective, arguing that the religion of both Jews and Christians was a barrier to emancipation. In responding to Bauer Marx makes one of the most enduring arguments from his early writings, by means of introducing a distinction between political emancipation essentially the grant of liberal rights and liberties and human emancipation. Marx's reply to Bauer is that political emancipation is perfectly compatible with the continued existence of religion, as the example of the United States demonstrates then. However, pushing matters deeper, in an argument reinvented by innumerable critics of liberalism, Marx argues that not only is political emancipation insufficient to bring about human emancipation, it is in some sense also a barrier. Liberal rights and ideas of justice are premised on the idea that each of us needs protection from other human beings. Therefore liberal rights are designed to protect us from such perceived threats. Freedom on such a view, is freedom from interference. What this view overlooks is the possibility for Marx, the fact that real freedom is to be found positively in our relations with other people. It is to be found in human community, not in isolation. So insisting on a regime of rights encourages us to view each other in ways which undermine the possibility of the real freedom we may find in human emancipation. Now we should be clear that Marx does not oppose political emancipation, for he clearly sees that liberalism is a great improvement on the systems of prejudice and discrimination which existed in the Germany of his day. Nevertheless such politically emancipated liberalism must be transcended on the route to genuine human emancipation. Unfortunately Marx never tells us what human emancipation is, although it is clear that it is closely related to the idea of non-alienated labour which we will explore below

Stanford - Karl Marx

Dave Roberts · 01-08-2005, 03:52 PM

Here ya go Steve,
Read down to the description of the inside of the temple... chapter 5 paragraph 5

It seems that the priests has quite an interest in astrology, but then again the origins of most religions are from stargazing priests.

http://www.raptureme.com/resource/fj/war-5.htm

Also in chapter 5 paragraph 4 you'll find a veil mentioned, could this be the same veil you'll find mentioned in Matt:27 verse 51, and Luke: 23 verse 45???

Clivedurdle · 01-08-2005, 06:05 PM

The description of the temple is very similar to Revelation and sermons I have heard.

What is also interesting is a possible origin for the idea of forgiveness of sin....

Quote:

When Titus had enlarged upon this matter before the commanders, it appeared evident that he would execute the law against all those that were concerned; so these soldiers' minds sunk down in despair, as expecting to be put to death, and that justly and quickly. However, the other legions came round about Titus, and entreated his favor to these their fellow soldiers, and made supplication to him, that he would pardon the rashness of a few, on account of the better obedience of all the rest; and promised for them that they should make amends for their present fault, by their more virtuous behavior for the time to come.

5. So Caesar complied with their desires, and with what prudence dictated to him also; for he esteemed it fit to punish single persons by real executions, but that the punishment of great multitudes should proceed no further than reproofs; so he was reconciled to the soldiers, but gave them a special charge to act more wisely for the future; and he considered with himself how he might be even with the Jews for their stratagem.

01-07-2005, 01:42 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Heaven in Jerusalem http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/progra...m_wright.shtml NT Wright says :- 'But for the Ancient Jew, heaven is not another place within our cosmos - upstairs somewhere. Heaven is another dimension of present reality, so that for instance if you went to the temple it wasn't as if you were in heaven. They really believed you were in heaven because the temple was the place within our geography which overlaps with God's geography, as it were.' Jews didn't think Heaven was upstairs 'somewhere'? They thought of Heaven as another dimension of present reality, and not something you could reach by ascending from our cosmos, as presumably Elijah did, and as some thought Moses did?

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01-07-2005, 01:53 PM	#2
getconfzd Guest Posts: n/a	This is a very common theme among liberal Christians. To them, the "Kingdom of God" is not a place. It's an ideal. It's something that they create in the present with peace and justice. Now to most Christian fundementalists, this Kingdom is God's domain. A place in which they will join him in body. They don't give a shit about peace and justice. Not exactly an answer to your question, by my two cents.

01-08-2005, 03:52 PM	#4
Dave Roberts Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,440	Here ya go Steve, Read down to the description of the inside of the temple... chapter 5 paragraph 5 It seems that the priests has quite an interest in astrology, but then again the origins of most religions are from stargazing priests. http://www.raptureme.com/resource/fj/war-5.htm Also in chapter 5 paragraph 4 you'll find a veil mentioned, could this be the same veil you'll find mentioned in Matt:27 verse 51, and Luke: 23 verse 45???

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