Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-23-2010, 12:39 PM

“The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ” (or via: amazon.co.uk) (not yet released).

Pullman has been threatened by religious zealots

Quote:

The author of the best-selling His Dark Materials trilogy has received scores of letters condemning him to “eternal hell” and “damnation by fire”.

In the book Mr Pullman writes that a man called Jesus lived 2,000 years ago but that Christ, as the son of God, was the invention of the disciple Paul.

The book, to be published next week, is in the form of a gospel and is partly inspired by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Inspired by the Archbishop of Canterbury

Quote:

"He wondered why I'd not put Jesus in His Dark Materials," says Pullman. "I said I would tackle it in a future book, and I thought it was time to deal with that story."

The book denies that Jesus was the son of God. "I'm not setting out to rival the Bible," he says. "I hope my book is not going to cause anyone to slaughter anyone. It is about how stories become stories, and how they become fixed and settled and differ from the events they are based on."

Pullman, who once said he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief", admits that the book "will make the cross people even crosser". He adds: "Anything I do enrages some people."

How long before Christian apologists start saying "even an atheist like Philip Pullman believes that Jesus existed..."?

No Robots · 03-23-2010, 01:07 PM

I, for one, hope that this is part of a movement by thoughtful atheists to reclaim Christ from both religion and mythicism.

spin · 03-23-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I, for one, hope that this is part of a movement by thoughtful atheists to reclaim Christ from both religion and mythicism.

"[T]o reclaim Christ"?! :constern02:

Bot Jesus and the christ are overtly unreclaimable. If he existed, there are so many laminae to the story that whoever it was behind it has been totally mystified. No matter how many arbitrary interventions one attempts, there does not appear to be any perspective from which to make a neutral analysis. There is no evident way to lift the veil. The best you can hope for is to restrain the eisegesis.

spin

Dutch_labrat · 03-23-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In the book Mr Pullman writes that a man called Jesus lived 2,000 years ago

Debatable but not something to get worked up over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

but that Christ, as the son of God, was the invention of the disciple Paul.

Hell yes!

Clivedurdle · 03-23-2010, 01:36 PM

Shouldn't authors research stuff? Is it possible he doesn't know there are other perspectives and actually agnosticism is a reasonable choice if people do not want to go mj?

Quote:

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is the remarkable new piece of fiction from best-selling and famously atheistic author Philip Pullman

Maybe we just need to publish Mark and Homer together?

aa5874 · 03-23-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

“The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ” (or via: amazon.co.uk) (not yet released).

Pullman has been threatened by religious zealots

Quote:

The author of the best-selling His Dark Materials trilogy has received scores of letters condemning him to “eternal hell” and “damnation by fire”.

In the book Mr Pullman writes that a man called Jesus lived 2,000 years ago but that Christ, as the son of God, was the invention of the disciple Paul.

The book, to be published next week, is in the form of a gospel and is partly inspired by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Inspired by the Archbishop of Canterbury

Quote:

"He wondered why I'd not put Jesus in His Dark Materials," says Pullman. "I said I would tackle it in a future book, and I thought it was time to deal with that story."

The book denies that Jesus was the son of God. "I'm not setting out to rival the Bible," he says. "I hope my book is not going to cause anyone to slaughter anyone. It is about how stories become stories, and how they become fixed and settled and differ from the events they are based on."

Pullman, who once said he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief", admits that the book "will make the cross people even crosser". He adds: "Anything I do enrages some people."

How long before Christian apologists start saying "even an atheist like Philip Pullman believes that Jesus existed..."?

But, the book "The good man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ" by Pullman is promoted as fiction.

“The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ” (or via: amazon.co.uk) (not yet released).

Quote:

["The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is the remarkable new piece of fiction from best-selling and famously atheistic author Philip Pullman."

Pullman would be actually promoting a fictional Jesus which makes a lot of sense since the history of Jesus will always have to be fabricated or invented from one's imagination or non-historical sources.

ApostateAbe · 03-23-2010, 05:28 PM

If Pullman thinks that the "Son of God" Jesus was primarily an invention of the apostle Paul, then you should appreciate his commonalities with mythicists. Many mythicists believe that Jesus was a complete invention of Paul, and no scholars I am aware of think that Paul invented the notion of Jesus being the "Son of God" except for mythicists. Paul seemed to have changed only smaller things of Christianity's Jesus, mainly that Jesus accepts Gentiles into the kingdom of Heaven. I figure that the deification of Jesus is best attributed to Jesus' most immediate followers, the same as those who encouraged belief in the resurrection. A historical model of Jesus, I imagine, makes for more interesting fiction. I certainly would have loved it if Pullman used my model of Jesus (Gospel of Abe) or, even better, one of the models most predominate among those who know and can evaluate the subject best.

ApostateAbe · 03-23-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Shouldn't authors research stuff? Is it possible he doesn't know there are other perspectives and actually agnosticism is a reasonable choice if people do not want to go mj?

Quote:

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is the remarkable new piece of fiction from best-selling and famously atheistic author Philip Pullman

Maybe we just need to publish Mark and Homer together?

It is a bit weird to make the allusion that Pullman has not sufficiently researched the subject, because those who research the subject the most, anti-religious or not, knowledgeable of Homer or not, are nearly unanimous in their opinion that there was a historical human Jesus. Maybe you can attribute Pullman's disregard for mythicism to the same explanation as you may have for the vast majority of critical New Testament scholars, whatever your explanation may be, such as a secret underlying sympathy for the Christian religion. Well, never mind, I guess that doesn't work so well for Pullman.

aa5874 · 03-23-2010, 06:31 PM

The historical Jesus MUST be based on fiction or imagination once all the documented mythology is stripped away or ignored.

In the Canon it is claimed that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin, the Creator of heaven and earth.

This Divinity or supernatural attribution must be striped from an "historical" Jesus and fiction or imagination inserted. An invented plausible birth narrative will be assigned to the historical Jesus based on the whims and fancy of the inventor or fiction writer.

It is clear that once all the fables and mythology are striped away from the Jesus character that we are left with nothing. ZERO.

So, it makes perfect sense to invent plausible fiction to historicise Jesus of the NT. There is no other solution.

Doug Shaver · 03-24-2010, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the Canon it is claimed that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin, the Creator of heaven and earth.

Obviously, you think the canon must be either entirely true or entirely false.

Some of us think there are other possibilities.

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03-23-2010, 01:07 PM	#2
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	I, for one, hope that this is part of a movement by thoughtful atheists to reclaim Christ from both religion and mythicism.

03-23-2010, 05:28 PM	#7
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	If Pullman thinks that the "Son of God" Jesus was primarily an invention of the apostle Paul, then you should appreciate his commonalities with mythicists. Many mythicists believe that Jesus was a complete invention of Paul, and no scholars I am aware of think that Paul invented the notion of Jesus being the "Son of God" except for mythicists. Paul seemed to have changed only smaller things of Christianity's Jesus, mainly that Jesus accepts Gentiles into the kingdom of Heaven. I figure that the deification of Jesus is best attributed to Jesus' most immediate followers, the same as those who encouraged belief in the resurrection. A historical model of Jesus, I imagine, makes for more interesting fiction. I certainly would have loved it if Pullman used my model of Jesus (Gospel of Abe) or, even better, one of the models most predominate among those who know and can evaluate the subject best.

03-23-2010, 06:31 PM	#9
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	The historical Jesus MUST be based on fiction or imagination once all the documented mythology is stripped away or ignored. In the Canon it is claimed that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin, the Creator of heaven and earth. This Divinity or supernatural attribution must be striped from an "historical" Jesus and fiction or imagination inserted. An invented plausible birth narrative will be assigned to the historical Jesus based on the whims and fancy of the inventor or fiction writer. It is clear that once all the fables and mythology are striped away from the Jesus character that we are left with nothing. ZERO. So, it makes perfect sense to invent plausible fiction to historicise Jesus of the NT. There is no other solution.

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