Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huon · 07-08-2012, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 12

1. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

2. and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This is the description of the birth of the historical Jesus, as it happened, truly.

Iskander · 07-08-2012, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 12

1. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

2. and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This is the description of the birth of the historical Jesus, as it happened, truly.

And the husband and father was:
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Holy one to be born shall be called the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)

Quote:

Marriage to the Holy Spirit: By stating it in those terms the archangel declared to Mary that God would enter into a marital relationship with her, causing her to conceive His Son in her womb

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TALMUD.HTM

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 12

1. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

2. and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This is the description of the birth of the historical Jesus, as it happened, truly.

The woman being Israel, of course.

M. Huon préfère Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Huon · 07-08-2012, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The woman being Israel, of course.

M. Huon préfère Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Speaking french is a good point for you.
But you don't get a good point in theology.
The woman IS Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The woman being Israel, of course.

M. Huon préfère Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Speaking french is a good point for you.
But you don't get a good point in theology.
The woman IS Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu.

Is that because the RCC decided so, or is there some real theology behind this?

Huon · 07-08-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 5

6. And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

8. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

9. And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

A lamb can be slain, but not crucfied, especially when the author of Revelation does not mention this sort of death.

andrewcriddle · 07-08-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 5

6. And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

8. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

9. And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

A lamb can be slain, but not crucfied, especially when the author of Revelation does not mention this sort of death.

See Revelation 11:8.

Andrew Criddle

sotto voce · 07-08-2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 5

6. And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

7. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

8. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

9. And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

A lamb can be slain, but not crucfied, especially when the author of Revelation does not mention this sort of death.

This is nothing directly to do with the OP (and it's not true, also). So if there is no appropriate exegesis, based on Rev 12, we may reasonably suppose that the RCC's version is eisegesis; along with every other of its Marian teachings.

Derlid · 07-08-2012, 07:18 AM

Sadly the Roman Catholics destroyed several pages of Revelations where he goes on about never eating that shit again, and trying to peel himself like an orange.

Seriously though I think revelations is a coded attack on the state of Judaism at the time John wrote it, in which he was talking about the end days happening as he wrote it.

So the seven headed dragon on which rode the whore of Babylon is clearly a reference to Rome and its seven Paletine hills, and the reference to a beast that is cut down but rises to life again is a reference to Nero who tried to commit suicide by ordering his guards to strike him down, and so on.

Huon · 07-08-2012, 07:37 AM

The Apocalypse of John is silent on the earthly life of Jesus.

The reader can find some correlation with the Gospels only in two verses of the Revelation to Saint John. The first one (I,5) says : "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; ". The second verse (XI,8) says : "their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. ". But these mentions are considered by Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) to be late interpolations. I don’t feel I am able to conclude, but it seems to me that these mentions could be easily cut off the rest of the text.

Another point is that these verses seem strange to me. In Rev I,5, the phrase "the firstborn of the dead" is not frequent in the Gospels, when applied to Jesus. Clearly (?), the author makes an allusion to the resurrection of Christ after his crucifixion, and he also means that the ordinary dead will be reborn later. Another qualification, " the ruler of the kings of the earth " could bear a particular meaning. There is a belief, millenarianism or chiliasm, according which Christ would reign as a king of the world, and all the just, including the saints recalled to life, would participate in this kingdom, during one thousand years, before the final end of the world. This belief is developed in the Revelation. From the third century on, this millenarianism has been felt embarrassing and awkward by many Christians. The temporary future reign of Christ as king of the world can be seen as a contradiction with the immediate present reign of Christ in heaven proclaimed by the Gospels. From this viewpoint, the Apocalypse of John develops a rather primitive version of christianity.

07-08-2012, 07:37 AM	#10
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The Apocalypse of John is silent on the earthly life of Jesus. The Apocalypse of John is silent on the earthly life of Jesus. The reader can find some correlation with the Gospels only in two verses of the Revelation to Saint John. The first one (I,5) says : "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; ". The second verse (XI,8) says : "their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. ". But these mentions are considered by Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) to be late interpolations. I don’t feel I am able to conclude, but it seems to me that these mentions could be easily cut off the rest of the text. Another point is that these verses seem strange to me. In Rev I,5, the phrase "the firstborn of the dead" is not frequent in the Gospels, when applied to Jesus. Clearly (?), the author makes an allusion to the resurrection of Christ after his crucifixion, and he also means that the ordinary dead will be reborn later. Another qualification, " the ruler of the kings of the earth " could bear a particular meaning. There is a belief, millenarianism or chiliasm, according which Christ would reign as a king of the world, and all the just, including the saints recalled to life, would participate in this kingdom, during one thousand years, before the final end of the world. This belief is developed in the Revelation. From the third century on, this millenarianism has been felt embarrassing and awkward by many Christians. The temporary future reign of Christ as king of the world can be seen as a contradiction with the immediate present reign of Christ in heaven proclaimed by the Gospels. From this viewpoint, the Apocalypse of John develops a rather primitive version of christianity.

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07-08-2012, 07:18 AM	#9
Derlid Banned Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: England Posts: 203	Sadly the Roman Catholics destroyed several pages of Revelations where he goes on about never eating that shit again, and trying to peel himself like an orange. Seriously though I think revelations is a coded attack on the state of Judaism at the time John wrote it, in which he was talking about the end days happening as he wrote it. So the seven headed dragon on which rode the whore of Babylon is clearly a reference to Rome and its seven Paletine hills, and the reference to a beast that is cut down but rises to life again is a reference to Nero who tried to commit suicide by ordering his guards to strike him down, and so on.

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