Bernard Muller

to Stephan,
I know our earliest and only known copy of "Proof of the Apostolic Preaching" is an Armenian text discovered in 1904. But I inquired about evidence on "At c 180 CE, it was taught in the Churches by the Elders that Jesus was crucified at about c 49 CE under Claudius" (quoted from aa. Emphasis mine).

Cordially, Bernard

aa5874

Please, how many times must I show what is found in copies of "Against Heresies" 2.22

In Against Heresies, it is claimed Jesus was about 30 years of age at baptism in the 15th year of Tiberius.

Essentially, Irenaeus' Jesus was born c 1 BCE-1 CE.

Against Heresies 2.22 I have discovered the Smoking Gun without any reasonable doubt.

"Against Heresies" devastates all claims that the Pauline writings were early. Against Heresies 2.22 destroys even the argument for an historical Jesus.

At c 180 CE, there was a tradition that John the apostle of Jesus and the other Apostles taught elders of the Church that Jesus was crucified under Claudius at about c 49 CE.

Against Heresies 2.22

aa5874

Why can't you accept that the dates are from PALAEOGRAPHERS? H A Sanders dated P46 to the 2nd half of the third century.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46#Date [/u] Paleographers have dated P 46 between 150-250 CE with a 95% probability.

I have used added information found in the copies of Apologetic writings and place the Pauline letters after 180 CE which is well within the 95% probability.

We have copies of writings supposedly from c 180 CE and later like Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix and Arnobius that show no influence at all of the Pauline teachings.

Bernard Muller

to aa,
You have a lot of trust in Irenaeus, who is the only one to put Jesus' ministry at a duration of 20 years; and then make self-serving claims the same was heard and taught during the reign of Trajan (some 80 years before), something which could not be verified during Irenaeus' later years.
But you claim that around 180 CE, these 20 years were taught by elders. What evidence do you have to justify that: "At c 180 CE, it was taught in the Churches by the Elders that Jesus was crucified at about c 49 CE under Claudius"?

Soon after Irenaeus' times, Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria ('Stromata', I, 21, 145) went for an one year Jesus' ministry. Then not too long after, Origen did the same (De Principiis, IV, 1, 5 "[Christ] taught about a year and a few months") (but later proposed 3 years ('Commentary on Matthew' Bk XXIV)). Also, Julius Africanus, around that time, accepted the one year.

Prior to Irenaeus, Justin Martyr (1 Apology XIIL) wrote Jesus was crucified when Tiberius was still ruling.
Also prior to Irenaeus, and closer to Trajan's time, (gnostic) Basilides (active 120-140) (according to Clement's 'Stromata', I, 21, 146) and the followers of (gnostic) Valentinus (active 120-160) (according to Irenaeus 'Against Heresies', I, 3, 3), went also for an one year Jesus' ministry.

Therefore it looks that 20 years ministry is just a pious lie by Irenaeus with no precedent and no following.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller

to aa,
I wondered some time ago on this forum "So, according to your methodology (paleographic dating of the earliest manuscript is close to when the original text was written), gMark came (around 250) after the Pauline epistles."
(I added italics for this post)

You answered: "What?? You don't even understand my methodology. I do not just assess chronology of writings by ONE factor."

What is your methodology? What are the other factors? What are the ones which allow you to discard the paleographic evidence for gMark?

Cordially, Bernard

aa5874

Did you not claim that the author of Acts did NOT know of Antiquities of the Jews because of mistake about a High Priest??

Irenaeus could NOT have made the mistake about the crucifixion of Jesus at about 50 years if he knew the Biography--the history of Paul and the Pauline letters.

The Church of Lyons did NOT know it either.

I am arguing that when the author of Against Heresies 2.22 presented the 1500 word argument that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years of age after he was about 30 years in the 15th year of Tiberius it was because he did NOT know of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters that Paul preached Christ Crucified since the time of King Aretas 37-41 CE.

He did NOT know Paul was a Persecutor of those who preached Christ Crucified since about 37 CE or earlier.

His writings were manipulated by a Later editor.

See 2 Corinthians 11.31-33 CE.

Again, it is virtually impossible for the author of Against Heresies, the Church of Lyons, the so-called Heretics to have known of Paul and his letters.

And even far worse, the author of Against Heresies 2.22 claimed it was John the disciple of Jesus who conveyed that information to the Apostles and the Elders of the Church.

When did Paul persecute those who Preached Christ Crucified in Acts and the Pauline letters?? The author of Against Heresies 2.22 did NOT know Paul persecuted those who preached Christ Crucified before the reign Claudius in Acts and the Pauline letters.

Acts 26:11 KJV Galatians 1:23 KJV

Bernard Muller

to aa,
Don't change the subject. There is a lot more than that, starting by two high priests, not only one (the 2nd one with double errors).

What Biography? None existed. No dates for the various events in Paul's life (in epistles & 'Acts'), just a few markers such as Gallio, Aretas & Herod, which Irenaeus might not have bothered to date. Plus 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians are combined letters which, uncombined, hinder any biographical reconstruction. Nothing which jumps at you as preventing a 20 years ministry for Jesus.

Furthermore you assume Irenaeus would be interested in time consuming investigative critical historical reconstruction (which I did) or he would be thinking about 'Acts' when writing his piece about the 20 years.

Irenaeus made a pious lie, passionately motivated by rejecting the one year ministry as claimed by Heretics of his days. That proved to be a historical mistake.

And for you who think the gospels & 'Acts' were written in the second century, how, if it was true the 20 years were well accepted during Trajan's reign and by Irenaeus, none of the gospels, 'Acts', Justin Martyr and others before & after him did not go for a long ministry (which is much better than a flash in the pan)?

Cordially, Bernard

jakejonesiv

Hi Duvduv,

Those are good points. I especially like your point that the text of Justin is known from a single manuscript (Codex Parisnus Graesus 450) which dates to 1364.

I suppose your position is possible, but if so it does not go nearly far enough to explain the evidence.

Jean Hardouin was born at Quimper in Breragne, on December 23, 1646. He entered his noviate in the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) in 1660. Jean Hardouin was a very pious man. He never questioned the veracity of the Scriptures, and as Jesuit scholar he was held in high regard.

Thus it came as a shock when Hardouin began to publish that certain works of antiquity were forgeries; the creation of an impious crew of Benedictine monks working in secret in the monasteries in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. The works he first suspected included St. Justin Martyr. But after great research he concluded that all of the Church Fathers were not by the claimed authors, but by imposters who nourished long afterwards. It broke upon him that these writings-especially Augustine--were being used by Calvinists and Lutherans to propagate their heresies.

Jean Hardouin eventually arrived at the conclusion that all of the allegedly ancient writings (including the Roman Historians) had been fabricated in the 13th and 14th centuries with the exceptions of Cicero, the Natural History of Pliny, the Georgics of Virgil, and the Satires and Epistles of Horace. These forgers toiled tirelessly in the monasteries of St. Victor, St. Germain, St. Dennis, Flueury, Luxeiul, Bobbio, Monte Cassino, etc. The forgers operated under the secret name of "Acoemetes." It was pretended that they stayed up all night singing, when in reality they were engaged in creating a false history. The goal was to introduce confusion and atheism where there was none before. The spread of these falsehoods were greatly abetted by the printing press.

Thus, not only were all the Church Fathers the invention of the Benedictine forgers, but all of the heretics too! The Heretics and their heresies are fiction! They were invented for the purpose of being opposed, and so establishing atheism. These heresies were feigned and fabulous is proven, according to Jean Hardouin, by the fact that they are not extant now.

The heretics were invented for the purpose of suggesting impiety by being insanely opposed. These evil forgers found the most effective way to corrupt the truth was to invent heretics to oppose, and then slyly infiltrate the refutations with false doctrines.


Prolegomena to a Censure of Old Writers, by Jean Hardouin, Jesuit, 1766. Translated by Edwin Johnson, M.A. 1909, printed and published by Dr. Hermann Detering, Berlin 2010.

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Dear aa5847,
According to your pleading above, Irenaeus wrote about 180 CE and thus his witness to the Pauline epistles date to the same time frame.

Otherwise, you must admit that you do not know when the writings attributed to Irenaeus were written. You must repudiate that Jesus was crucified at about c 49 CE under Claudius. It is merely the ravings of an unknown forger.


Best regards,
Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Hi Bernard,

aa is asking you to believe his unverified word that "At c 180 CE, it was taught in the Churches by the Elders that Jesus was crucified at about c 49 CE under Claudius".
There is not a shred of proof that this is true.

Jake