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02-27-2013, 08:35 PM | #1 |
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Dating Paul
PAUL NOT NAMED AND EPISTLES NOT MENTIONED
Revelation (late 90's CE) Quadratus (120's CE), Apology Aristedes (120's CE), Apology Gospels (120's-180's CE) Papias (130's CE) Didache (130's CE) Ariston (early 140's CE) Epistle of Barnabas (early 140's CE) Epistle of James (early 140's CE) Shepard of Hermas (140's CE) Justin, 1 Apology (approximately 150 CE) Justin, Dialogue (approximately 160 CE) 2 Clement (approximately 160 CE) Tatian, early 160's CE Miltiades, early 160's CE Minucius Felix, early 160's CE Clausius Apollinaris, early 160's CE Hegesippus, Commentaries, 165-75 CE Dionysius of Corinth, ca 170 CE Melito of Sardis, early 170's CE Rhodon, early 170's CE Celsus, True Word, 170's CE Athenagoras, Apology, late 170's CE Theophilus of Antioch, early 180's CE Maximus, 180's CE Serapion, approximately 190 CE Athenagoras, Apology 170's CE PAUL KNOWN BUT EPISTLES NOT MENTIONED Episcula Apostolorum, 170's CE Acts of the Apostles, ca 180 CE BOTH PAUL AND EPISTLES KNOWN Marcion and the Gnostics, Apostilicon 130's CE Ignatians, Marcionite (or Appelean) version, approximately 160 CE Polycarp, 160's CE Pastoral Epistles, (by Polycarp?) 160's CE 1 Clement (Catholic redaction) 150-160's CE 2 Peter, 180-200 CE Irenaeus, 180's CE Ignatians (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE Pauline Epistles (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE Tertullian, Third century CE Origen, Third century CE Best, Jake Jones IV |
02-27-2013, 09:13 PM | #2 | |
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Hi Jakejonesiv,
Based on this evidence, it does seem reasonable to place Paul's epistles around 130, and probably to attribution them to Marcion. Marcion might have rewritten an earlier substratum. We might also consider a more orthodox revision in the 160's. Warmly, Jay Raskin Quote:
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02-27-2013, 10:04 PM | #3 |
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Then again, if the epistles were composite texts combining preexisting Bible friendly writings with additions concerning the Christ story then there is no reason to assume an actual Paul at all. Especially since the epistles are always presented as a set for which no evidence exists that they were written or received, or that any of the Christian communities existed.
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02-27-2013, 11:21 PM | #4 |
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'Marcion and the Gnostics, Apostilicon 130's CE'
Seems to be a ringer in this list. Just how secure is this date? Or rather what is credible evidence of the claimed content? |
02-27-2013, 11:50 PM | #5 |
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'Dating Paul.' Sounds like one of those romantic comedies which stars Josh Duhamel (although the way you spell 'datig' it looks more like a foreign attempt at that genre).
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02-28-2013, 01:30 AM | #6 | ||
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Quote:
R. Joseph Hoffman has argued that the standard dates are too late, and Marcion is earlier than commonly thought. Quote:
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02-28-2013, 01:52 AM | #7 | ||||
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Hey jakejonesiv,
Nice list. What about the non canonical Acts of Paul? I imagine it would fit in to the category: PAUL KNOWN BUT EPISTLES NOT MENTIONED. Technically the Acts of Paul depends on the existence of "Paul". The dating of the non canonical act cannot be before (Canonical) Paul. Quote:
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02-28-2013, 05:56 AM | #8 | ||
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date of revelation
Quote:
I am writing to suggest that the date you have offered for authorship of Revelation, may be too early, by several decades. As I understand it, John of Patmos is regarded by some authorities as the same author, John, of gospel fame. Then, the date for Revelation is based on two different assumptions: a. that we know when John, author of "gospel of John", lived, and composed; b. that the same guy subsequently wrote Revelation, hence the late first century date. Quote:
If someone writes a history of Ivan the terrible, then, we understand this author lived after Ivan. If someone writes a history of Russia, and makes no mention of Ivan grozny, then can we reasonably conclude that he must have lived BEFORE Ivan had ruled? Which of the documents in your excellent list, references John of Patmos? Or, is there some other source, not included in this list for dating Paul's epistles, that mentions John of Patmos? With respect to Marcion, are there not some sculptures, or coins, or temples, or engravings on stone, somewhere, attesting to his existence in mid second century, or is there only conjecture, and assumption based on Tertullian or other 3rd century opponents? Do any of the documents attributed to Mani, for example those found along the silk route, mention Marcion? Were they not both raised in Ὁσροηνή? I think that Mani referenced Paul, but I am not positive about that.... You cited Tatian, I guess that means "Diatessaron". Umm, Does he mention in any document, John of Patmos? Where is the SOURCE for this idea that John of Patmos lived in the first century? I hope it is not Eusebius..... |
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02-28-2013, 09:08 AM | #9 |
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02-28-2013, 09:19 AM | #10 | |
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There is a consistent pattern in these sources which shows that the Pauline letters to Churches were composed AFTER the Jesus story was known. Examine every writing in the list. 1. There are writings which the authors knew of the Jesus story but Nothing of Paul, the Pauline Revealed Gospel and Pauline letters to Churches. 2. Any author that wrote about Paul, the Pauline Revealed Teachings or Pauline letters to Churches will ALWAYS know of the Jesus story. 3. The Pauline writings themselves show that the Pauline writer was AWARE of the Jesus story and even the stories about the disciples and even claimed he persecuted those who believed the stories of Jesus. 4. Authors which mentioned the Pauline letters to Churches know virtually all books of the Canon. The pattern is consistent Pauline letters to Churchs did NOT predate the story of Jesus. |
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