PhilosopherJay

Hi Rusty Venture,

Exactly, the Reagan/Rocky/Gipp story is not fully explained, but referred to occasionally, so it dances ever so lightly in the ideological background connecting football to politics to religion in a mystical fashion.

That Gipp was a gambler, pool hustler, poor student, smoked and constantly broke training rules is well known, but Knute Rockne's perchance for telling outrageous lies is most often covered up. It does not fit the Football Saint Rockne mold. Here's a particularly egregious example from Sport's Illustrated:

That a man would lie about the health of his own child in such a manner tells us a great deal about the moral character of the man.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

maryhelena

Philosopher Jay

Here is a chart referencing two historical figures that the gospel storyline, re JC, is more likely than not drawing upon for inspiration....
Two historical figures that have been 'lost' via the creation of the literary JC gospel construct.

GOSPEL STORY:MYTH	HISTORY
John 1:43-44	-
43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”	(Philip the Tetrarch) "He also advanced the village Bethsaids, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, the same name with Caesar's daughter". (Ant.18.ch.2)
44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida.	The numismatist A. Kindler suggested that Josephus may be wrong and that Livia/Julia the wife would lie behind this dedication dated to 30/31 CE. Following Kindler, the archaeologists and theologians currently operating at etTell-identified by them as the site of Bethsaida-Julias-have produced many papers accusing Josephus of error:.
-	http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20769141
Mark 8:27.”Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”	“Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Cesarea”. (Ant.18.ch.2)
Mark 3:6-8 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. When they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon.	(Philip) “...he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgement, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal sat down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint;” Ant.18. ch.4
Luke 3.1 “In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar”.29/30 CE	"About this time it was that Philip, Herod's brother departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius”.Ant,18.ch.4. 33/34 CE
3 year ministry in gJohn = 33 CE crucifixion. = 70 years from 37 BC	37 BC =Antigonus II Mattathias: Wikepedia footnote:” Josephus merely says that Marc Antony beheaded King Antigonus. Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8-9). Roman historian Dio Cassius says scouraged, crucified then put to death. See The University Magazine and Free Review, Volume 2 edited by John Mackinnon Robertson and G. Astor Singer (Nabu Press, 2010) at page 13. Merging the material from Josephus and Dio Cassius leads to the conclusion that Antigonus was scourged, crucified, and beheaded.”

maryhelena

Hi, Philosopher Jay
I've added a little more at the end of my chart. Actually, there is even more that could be added but that starts to make things more complicated - and hence requires much more space than a chart allows for.

(For instance I think that Philip did not die when our present copies of Josephus state so - earlier printed copies have a different date - which does not actually take away from the points made in the chart, ie death of JC can likewise be moved on a bit. I have posted elsewhere on this forum re Philip becoming Agrippa I - which would, interestingly, fit in with the JC resurrection storyline where the disciples did not recognize him after the resurrection - well sort of as goes the storyline...)

Basically, what all this does, re the gospel JC storyline, is just that - follow the story - a bit like in any suspicious circumstance - follow the money - so with JC - follow the story. - and don't trip up on any verbal stones on the money trail...

(note: for Stephan Huller - my theory re Philip and Agrippa I has had an update - which might well surprise and please you - but will only update another time..... )

GOSPEL STORY:MYTH	HISTORY
John 1:43-44	-
43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”	(Philip the Tetrarch) "He also advanced the village Bethsaids, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, the same name with Caesar's daughter". (Ant.18.ch.2)
44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida.	The numismatist A. Kindler suggested that Josephus may be wrong and that Livia/Julia the wife would lie behind this dedication dated to 30/31 CE. Following Kindler, the archaeologists and theologians currently operating at etTell-identified by them as the site of Bethsaida-Julias-have produced many papers accusing Josephus of error:.
-	http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20769141
Mark 8:27.”Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”	“Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Cesarea”. (Ant.18.ch.2)
Mark 3:6-8 Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. When they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon.	(Philip) “...he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgement, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal sat down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint;” Ant.18. ch.4
Luke 3.1 “In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar”.29/30 CE	"About this time it was that Philip, Herod's brother departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius”.Ant,18.ch.4. 33/34 CE
3 year ministry in gJohn = 33 CE crucifixion. = 70 years from 37 BC	37 BC =Antigonus II Mattathias: Wikepedia footnote:” Josephus merely says that Marc Antony beheaded King Antigonus. Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8-9). Roman historian Dio Cassius says scouraged, crucified then put to death. See The University Magazine and Free Review, Volume 2 edited by John Mackinnon Robertson and G. Astor Singer (Nabu Press, 2010) at page 13. Merging the material from Josephus and Dio Cassius leads to the conclusion that Antigonus was scourged, crucified, and beheaded.”
Matthew 27.57-59. "As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away".	-
Isaiah 53.9. "He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death.	(Philip) ”... He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp”. Ant.18.ch.4
John 4:14. “...but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”	”...And as this origin of Jordan was formerly not known, it was discovered so to be when Philip was tetrarch of Trachonitis; for he had chaff thrown into Phiala, and it was found at Paninto, where the ancients thought the fountain-head of the river was, whither it had been therefore carried [by the waters]”. War ch.3. (a gravity-defying storyline...)

PhilosopherJay

Hi Maryhelena,

The Antigonus crucifixion connection is interesting to me. Crucified Jewish Kings in history are kind of rare. There would need to be more parallels to be a stronger case.

On the other hand the Philip-Bethsaida connection is a little bit harder to see. If Phillip had been from Bethsaida or lived there, instead of just making it a city, the case would be stronger. I assume Philip was a popular name because Greeks ruled Israel from 332 BCE when Alexander conquered it to the 150's, and Alexander's father was named Philip.

Names are easily changed, so I would look for parallel plot structures and parallels in incidents rather than just names in common.

Rockne with the nickname Rock is an interesting parallel to Peter (Petros-Rock) not because Rockne was Peter reincarnated, but because the religious Catholics who ran Notre Dame in the early 20th century might have liked the idea of having somebody named after their Church's founder to be in charge of their football team. It is a fundamentally magical proposition that a name or a word similar to an ancient name or word would cause a similar result (successful church equals successful football team), but religious thinking is in some sense always magical thinking.

One might consider if you would prefer the Coach of your football team to be named James, John, Robert or Mike?

Approximately 10% of American males are named James, John or Robert, but none of the 100 highest paid football coaches (2010) are named James, John or Robert. On the other hand, while less than one percent (only 0.189) of American males are named Mike. Eight out of the 100 highest paid football coaches are named Mike.

The next most popular names for Football Coaches are Mark, Steve and Jim - four each. They all are less than one percent (0.938 %, 0.780 % and 0.118 %) of males in the general American population.

Mike, Mark, Steve and Jim make up 2% of the male names, but 20% of the 100 Highest Paid Football Coaches in the U.S.

I'm not sure why this is. I know that psychological studies show that names do apparently influence occupations that people go into.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

maryhelena

Hi, Philosopher Jay

The Antigonus crucifixion connection is a more recent addition to my theory than the Philip connection. I’ve for many years (25+) been interested in the Philip the Tetrarch connection - and since this historical figure was not crucified, I’ve simply viewed the crucifixion as being the gospel ‘salvation’ storyline ie the dying and rising god mythology. The Antigonus connection simply adds more history to my theory - and of course, gives Paul, some flesh and blood substance upon which to base his Christology theories.

Regarding Philip and the gospel JC figure. What did strike me, after reading both the following quotations, was that JC looked to be a ‘Johnny come lately’ figure - Philip had been doing the rounds of his territory long before JC supposedly did likewise.


The gospel writer, writers, in creating their JC character were most probably influenced by historical figures. However, for their literary creation of JC to have any chance of making it on his own, so to speak, then the historical figures that were drawn upon for his creation needed to be sidelined, needed to be kept under wraps. Additionally, of course, Judea was under Roman rule and any messianic ideas re prominent figures would have to be downplayed - both for the safety of the individual involved and for peace with Rome. Not talking the firebrands here who would find some glory in being David against the mighty Roman Goliath. Remember the wonder-worker story in Slavonic Josephus - he was not prepared to go against Rome. And as for Jewish messianic expectations - it’s kingship that is relevant - not nobody carpenters...The gospels pick out Casearea Philippi as the place where JC is asked if he is the messiah. If, historically, any such notions were being voiced re Philip the Tetrarch - then it goes without saying - such notions had better not reach the ears of Rome. Don’t tell, says the gospel JC as he warned, ordered, the disciples not to talk about any messianic notions re his identity.

There are many roadblocks in the way of getting to grips with Philip the Tetrarch...but that’s all part of the fun and games re tracing the origins of early Christianity...