PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

I am often torn between two originating models for the Jesus Myth. One is basically the comic-book/Mythology model. Popular fiction is forgotten to be fiction after a few generations and people start to historicize it. It is basically a type of Euhemerus model, where the Gods are claimed to be historical human beings.

The second model is one of drastically distorted historical events mixed with religious ideology. This suggests that there are references to several historical figures within the gospels, but so entangled with fantasies and lies that it is hard to demarcate between the fictional stories and the people.

"The Gipper" legend of athlete George Gipp and his supposed mentor and Notre Dame Football founder Knute Rockne is a good example of the second kind of model.

The legend is that Knute Rockne was the greatest coach in college football history. George Gipp, the greatest natural football college athlete in history, on his deathbed, told Knute Rockne to tell his team "to win one for the Gipper." After Knute told this to his underdog team at halftime in a 1928 game against Army, they made a big comeback and won.

The moral of the story is that inspired by Saint Rockne, they were possessed by the holy/athletic spirit of Gipp and played like super-athletes. As Jesus brought the Holy Spirit of God to his Apostles, so did Rockne bring the Holy Spirit of Gipp to his team.

The story gets expanded later when Ronald Reagan who played George Gipp for about eight minutes in the 1940 movie "Knute Rockne: All American" inserted himself into the myth, with both his supporters and himself purposefully confusing his acting role with his own personality.

When one examines the actual facts in the case, one is horrified by the twisting of facts and the disdain for historical truth that the legend/myth tramples over. It becomes even more bizarre when we consider the political implications for the legend that it helped to get "B" actor Ronald Reagan elected President of the United States, and also helped the election of George W. Bush. Thus this legend/myth drastically affected the history of our times.

Let us compare historical facts and see how the legends/myths replaced them.

1. Myth: George Gipp was the greatest college football athlete. Gipp had dropped out of high school and was working full time and playing semi-pro baseball nights, when he got a Baseball scholarship to Notre Dame at the age of 22. Gipp put up extraordinary numbers over four years, about 30 games playing: 21 career touchdowns, passing for 1,789 yards, rushing for 2,341 yards and 38 yards per punt was certainly extraordinary for the time.

1. Reality: It is difficult to compare Gipp to modern day athletes who specialize in passing, rushing and punting. It is hard to compare the 12-14 game schedules of today to the 8 or 9 game schedules of that period. In 2010, for example, Boise State quarterback Kellen Moore, passed for 3,845 yards (twice as much as Gipp in his career), and made 35 touchdowns. Running back LaMichael James of Oregon scored 21 touchdowns (equal to Gipp's career) and made 1,731 yards (75% of Gipp's entire career). Out of the top 100 college punters, 94 of them averaged over 38 yards per punt (Gipp's average).

Most important is the quality of teams Gipp faced. In April of the year, 1917, the U.S. declared War and many young men went off to fight in World War I. In 1918, the great influenza epidemic nearly caused all football games to be canceled. These events may have caused Gipp to face inferior teams during his time as a player. During his career, Gipp only played one game against a team ranked in the top 20. Notre Dame played Michigan State, ranked #19 on November 16, 1918 and Notre Dame lost 13-7.

A typical example of the opponent teams that Notre Dame played in these years was Kalamazoo College. In 1920, Notre Dame was an all male college with 1221 students enrolled. Kalamazoo was a co-ed school with an enrollment of under 350 total and under 200 men. While Notre Dame was recruiting semi-pro athletes, like Gipp, who intended on careers as professional athletes, Kalamazoo had to rely on students, most of whom were enrolled to become professional teachers. Here is the record of the games Notre Dame played against Kalamazoo from 1916-1923

1917 55-0

1919 14-0

1920 39-0

1921 36-0

1922 26-0

1923 74-0

In six games, Kalamazoo never scored a single point against Notre Dame. This is to be expected when real students who are just playing football for exercise are playing against professional and semi-professional athletes. Note that Notre Dame even did slightly better against Kalamazoo in the three years after Gipp (1921-23) than when Gipp played for Notre Dame (1917, 1919, 1920).

Gipp made money off of his football playing. He was a gambler (also a card sharp and pool hustler) and bragged to have made over $5,000 a year betting on Notre Dame. In an age where a new 1921 Model T cost $310, a loaf of bread $.05 and a movie ticket $.10, $5,000 was the equivalent of about $250,000 today.

Gipp also smoked and rarely attended football practice. He was kicked out of school in his junior year for failure to attend classes. A community petition and Rockne's intervention got him returned to the team. He died before he graduated and before he was expected to start playing professional baseball with the Chicago Cubs. (Professional Football was just starting in 1920)

It is also probable that Gipp was a homosexual. Teammates called him a loner and said that he rejected the advances of many ardent female fans. Being handsome and a nationally known football celebrity from age 23-25, one would have expected Gipp to be dating, engaged or married. There are some reports he had a steady girl friend named Iris, but no concrete evidence has been found.

In short, Gipp's extraordinary (for its time) statistical football record was achieved against poor college football teams. it was a case of a professional athlete easily beating amateurs.

Myth #2. Knute Rockne was the greatest football coach of all time. His record of 105 wins, 12 loses, and 5 ties has never been equaled for a top college team. He took a small Indiana underdog team and inspired it to greatness.

Name↓	First Year↓	Last Year↓	Years↓	Games↓	Wins↓	Losses↓	Ties↓	Win %↓	Teams↓
Kehres, Larry	1986	2010	25	329	303	23	3	.926	Mount Union (1986–2010)
Rockne, Knute	1918	1930	13	122	105	12	5	.881	Notre Dame (1918–1930)
Van Diest, Mike	1999	2010	12	164	144	20	0	.878	Carroll (MT) (2000–2010)
Leahy, Frank	1939	1953	13	129	107	13	9	.864	Boston College (1939–1940), Notre Dame (1941–1943, 1946–1953)
Reade, Bob	1979	1994	16	170	146	23	1	.862	Augustana (IL) (1979–1994)
Perry, Doyt	1955	1964	10	93	77	11	5	.855	Bowling Green (1955–1964)
Farley, Dick	1987	2003	17	136	114	19	3	.849	Williams (1987–2003)

Reality: Rockne inherited a pretty good team when he took over as head coach in 1918. Here is the record of the team for the five years before Rockne and his first five years coaching:

1913 7-0
1914 6-2
1915 7-1
1916 8-1
1917 6-1-1
1918 3-1-2
1919 9-0
1920 9-0
1921 9-1
1922 8-1-1

Notre Dame's record was 34-5-1 before Rockne and 38-3-3 when Rockne took over. It had dominated the overwhelmingly poor and small college teams it faced for five years before Rockne and continued to dominate them afterwards.

If we look at how Rockne did against teams ranked in the top 20 that Notre Dame played against, we get a more accurate picture of his coaching skill (based on Soren Sorensen's yearly rankings ):

1918

Michigan State 19 lost 13-7

Top 20 0-1

1921

Nebraska 8 won 7-0

Top 20 1 and 0

1922

Army 7 tie 0-0

Nebraska 12 lost 14-6

Top 20 0-1-1

Army

1923

Army 20 won 13-0

Top 20 1-0

1924

Army 19 won 13-7

Georgia Tech 17 won 34-3

Stanford 7 won 27-10

Top 20 teams 3-0

1925

Georgia Tech 15 won 13-0

Nebraska 19 lost 0-17

Top 20 1-1

1926

Northwestern 16 won 8-0

Army 18 won 7-0

Carnegie Tech 13 lost 0-19

Southern California 9 won 13-12

Top 20 3-1

1927

Georgia Tech 3 won 26-7

Minnesota 14 tie 7-7

Army 6 lost 18-0

Southern California 13 won 7-6

Top 20 2-1-1

1928:

Wisconsin 6th lost 22-6

Georgia Tech 1st lost 13-0

Army 20 won 12-6

Carnegie tech 11 lost 27-7

Southern Cal 2 lost 27-14

Top 20 1-4

Not including the 1929-30 seasons, against top 20 teams, Rockne had an overall record of 12-9-2.

In 1929 and 1930, Rockne had Phlebitis and his time coaching was severely limited, Notre Dame hired other full time assistant coaches to help him. In 1929, he was actually only at three of the nine games that his team played.

1929

Navy 15 won 14-7

Southern Cal 2 won 13-12

Top 20 2-0

1930

So. Methodist 13 won 24-14

Carnegie tech 19 won 21-6

Pitt 14 won 35-19

Northwestern 11 won 14-0

Army 4 won 7-6

Southern Cal 8 won 27-0

Top 20 6-0

1929 and 1930 were the only two years where Notre Dame had a great record against top 20 teams 8-0. This was the beginning of the Great Depression and most schools were cutting back on their football programs. Notre Dame, seeing football as quite profitable, expanded their program. If we include the last two seasons where he coached only part time, at best, with other full time coaches, he had a record of 20-9-2.

About the years 1918-1928, we can say that Rockne only played a few games a year against teams that were equal to his own in quality players. Because, he played only a few important games a year, he did not have to devote much time to preparing for the five or six pushover teams he faced each year. He had more time to train his players to prepare for the few important games that they had a chance of actually losing. A record of 12-9-2 is not extraordinary, but what any competent coach could be expected to achieve.

to be continued, next George Gipp's real death and mythical death.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Frankencaster

Since few out of the USA has a clue about what you are writing about, then 'no', it's not a good model.

Jesus became famous rather quickly in most of known western civilization. His legend wasn't restricted to his roots but spread across language, cutures. Jesus never really caught on among the Jews beyond a few localized followers.

There is obviously a missing variable

What is that variable?

maryhelena

Now then, that second model of yours is right up my street. Don't know anything of course about the real guy that your talking about. Only remember that Reagan was 'the Gripper'....

Hence the real guy got lost.....

I'm sort of working a bit on something related to this idea at the moment - apart that is from the JC storyline - I'm beginning to think that Josephus was playing this game also....

PS - just noticed that you've posted your Part 2 - no time to read it now - of to play bridge for the morning.....

PhilosopherJay

Part 2.

Myth #3. At Gipp's bedside as he lay dying, he told Rockne that he should tell his team one day that they should "Win One for the Gipper"

Reality #3 Gipp was sick with a bad cold the week before he played his last game. on November 20, 1920. He also had a dislocated shoulder. Gipp sat in freezing weather. It was a game that Notre Dame was easily winning when Rockne inserted him in the game. He threw for two long touchdown passes. Within a few days, he was hospitalized with step throat and soon developed pneumonia. Although, many teammates visited and newspapers issued daily bulletins on Gipp's condition, Rockne did not come to visit him until the night of December 13th, according to Rockne. He was allegedly there by his side when he died in the early hours of the next morning.
The deathbed request that he "Win One for the Gipper" was not revealed for eight years by Rockne. What did happen the night Gipp died did cause a big scandal immediately.

The President of Notre Dame claimed that Gipp, who was from a Baptist family had suddenly converted on his death bed and was given Last Rites by a Catholic priest. None of the other players had ever known him to show any interest in Catholicism. Gipp's family denied that he had shown any interest in Catholicism and suggested that it must have been his feverish delirium from the disease that caused his deathbed conversion if it actually happened. Rockne supported his school's president, claiming to be a witness to the deathbed conversion.

With a strep throat and pneumonia, it is unbelievable that the doctors would have let Rockne or the university president get near enough to Gipp to hear his death bed conversion or his bizarre last request to have some future Notre Dame football team win a game for him.

Most importantly no player recalled ever having heard anyone refer to Gipp as "The Gipper" and the term was only used 10 years later in an autobiographical article by Rockne (which was ghostwritten for him). While nobody heard Gipp refered to as "The Gipper" as a nickname, "Rockne" was often called "the Rock" One can see a relationship between the change in names if Rockne was imagining himself as Gipp and inventing the speech. Since people had given him a nickname by taken away two letters and putting "the" in front of his name, it would make sense in inventing a nickname for Gipp to reverse the process and add two letters and the "The" to the name. Rockne loses two letter going from six to four letters and Gipp gains two letters, going from four to six.

We should also notice the importance of the name "Rock" in Catholic mythology. "The Rock" was Peter who founded the Catholic Church, in the same way that "The Rock" founded Football at Notre Dame.

The myth created by Rockne about the deathbed wish of Gipp effectively erased the controversy about the probably phony deathbed conversion of Gipp. The second lie caused people to forget the first lie.

Myth #4. The 1928 game where Rockne gave his speech to his players that Gipp wanted some future team to win one for him inspired his players to win against impossible odds.

Reality #4. The game was 0-0 at halftime. Notre Dame won 12-6. The game involved a great controversy as the timekeeper stopped the game when Army was at Notre Dame's goalline on the one foot lline and certainly would have tied the game on the next play. They could have easily won on the point-after kick. The controversy over the last play was covered in the newspapers the next day. On Monday, a former Notre Dame alumnus named Wallace published an article claiming that Gipp's Ghost had defeated the Army. He had heard about the speech that Rockne gave during halftime and claimed that was the deciding factor. In this first retelling of the tale, the expression "Win one for the Gipper" was not used. Instead the article reported that Gipp had requested that Notre Dame win a game against Army for him.

The article was effective in getting people to forget about the scandalous ending to the game and that Notre Dame had won a victory they didn't deserve. People now talked about the wonderful miracle that Rockne had pulled off, inspiring his team with the Ghost of Gipp.

Myth #5 Reagan gave a great performance

Reality #5. This was a minor eight minute role for Reagan who had starred in four movies before this one and had longer supporting parts in half a dozen other movies. Variety didn't even mention Reagan in its review, saying "Pat O'Brien delivers a fine characterization of the immortal Rockne, catching the spirit of the role with an understanding of the human qualities of the man. Donald Crisp turns in his usual capable performance as Father John Callahan, head of Notre Dame."

Reagan's role consists of five short scenes between one and three minutes.
1. Rockne (Pat O'Brian) says his team will need a prayer to win. He sees Reagan punting a football and recruits him for the team.
2. Reagan casually impresses Rockne with a great run in practice.
3. File footage is intercut with four individual shots of Reagan playing football to illustrate all of Gipp's career.
4. His career ending, Reagan visits Rockne at his house and talks with his wife and children warmly before telling Rockne that he owes everything to him. Rockne notices his bad cough and orders him to go to the hospital.
5. Reagan gives his deathbed speech with a sickly smile on his face. He tells Rockne that he doesn't mind dying and his only wish is to help Rockne win some future game by inspiring his players. Reagan then closes his eyes and dies without any pain.

Reagan had a 30 year movie career, including as a leading man in a dark-themed movie dealing with incest called "King's Row". Yet, he only and incessantly only noted this one role. Wikipedia notes:

Semiologically speaking, "the Gipper" is an impossible word having no exact meaning, but can refer to Reagan, a dying athlete who dies and sacrifices for his team, George Gipp, the Ghost or Spirit of George Gripp, Rockne himself, an older coach who gives inspirational speeches (Although Rockne himself died at only age 44).

What is interesting is that the myth has not an historical, but an anti-historical, purpose. It is purposefully designed to cover up shameful and painful historical incidents that the creators of the myth were involved in. It is possible that Jesus mythology works in the same way to cover up and transform or transfer the same types of historical incidents.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

Yes, "Reagan is the Gipper" according to a Christian mass media that sends out a message that is accepted uncritically and without understanding, but seems to mean one thing clearly even if it has an incredible unknown tangled, confusing history behind it.

"The Gipper" is just another religious-mythological symbol-title like "son of god" or "Jesus Christ"

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

ecco

It's not inconceivable that in 4011 Reaganites will be worshiping the holy trinity of Reagan/Rockne/Gipp and believing they were all one and the same entity.



Good posts, lotsa interesting stats and facts.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Frankencaster,

Yes, it is a more localized mythological model in that American Football has remained the most popular sport only in the United States. Conversely, soccer has caught on in many places internationally, but not in others.

We should note that in China and India, Christianity never caught on. Islam caught on in a number of countries, but failed miserably in a number of others.

One can wonder why certain sports or ideologies penetrate so deeply in some areas and not in others. Specific environmental and historical factors have to be taken into consideration.

I apologize for the localized quality of the model. Outside of the United States, you can just imagine it applying to your own country's favorite sport.

This might help you to understand its localized impact. It is from a newspaper article written last year:

Jimmy Breslin is perhaps the most celebrated New York City journalist and novelist of the past half century. His observation, "The Gipp myth gained fantastic momentum through an era of newspaper sports writing that saw athletes likened in print to Greek gods," is quite acute.


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

PhilosopherJay

Hi ecco,

Yes, excellent point. I think, here in the United States, the relationship between the three is already foggy in most people's minds. In the same way the relationship between Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost is foggy.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Rusty Venture

I think it's a good analogy (and an entertaining read!). A good analogy doesn't have to be exactly point by point. Gipp did become a legend in college football in the U.S. and almost nowhere will you ever find a critical examination of how and why that came about, what's true, and what's not true, and what the actual background of the story is.

If one grows up appreciating college football then they will read about the Knute Rockne and George Gipp story, with the legend being told rather than the actual facts. I think it's fairly comparable to Sunday school for kids. And as a child becomes an adult, when prompted to think about Rockne/Gipp they'll think of the legend as fact rather than a glorification of events with some fabrication thrown in. They think that it happened the way they were told and that's that. To me that sounds very similar to God belief.

maryhelena

Perhaps the big lesson to be learned, re the gospel JC, from this story, is that George Gipp gets lost and it's Reagan who, for all intense and purposes, carries the torch...

In a similar vein, the historicists notwithstanding, it is JC that is carrying the torch for the actual historical figure, figures, that have contributed to the JC storyline. They are lost to the gospel storyline but JC stands tall...Sure, JC, unlike Reagan, is not flesh and blood, but the principle remains. Imagine the surprise, a few hundred years down the line, if someone wants to start a search for "The Gipper, for a biography of Reagan instance, and is shattered to discover that Reagan is a phony 'gipper' and the real deal is someone else entirely. That to my mind, is where the historicists are at - the man, JC, they are searching for is that phony - while the real deal, the real historical figures, are beyond their present comprehension.....

So, yes, to answer your question in the OP - 'The Gipper' story is very much of interest for the creation of the gospel JC storyline...