Johnny Skeptic

My topic question is quite important. It is one matter what the Gospel writers claimed about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, but it is another matter entirely whether or not the disciples consistently defended their status as eyewitnesses throughout their lives. I look forward to reading comments by readers.

Johnny Skeptic

I would appreciate it if some readers will answer my topic question.

Peter Kirby

There are apocryphal 'acts of the apostles'.

Whatever that's worth.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

Toto

There is no reliable historical record of any of the disciples, unless you count Paul's mention of the Pillars of the Jerusalem Church, and identify Cephas with Peter and assume that John was a disciple and James was Jesus' brother.

Early church legend has Peter testifying to Jesus's resurrection up until he was crucified upside down in Rome. However, there is no good reason to think that Peter or Paul ever went to Rome.

In short, there's nothing.

Peter Kirby

Why aren't Acts and the Epistle to the Romans reasons for thinking that Paul went to Rome?

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

Acts is full of obviously fictionalized material, and is not a reliable source of information.

It's too late at night right now to go into the Epistle to the Romans, but I suspect that Rome was worked into some preexisting narratives.

Killer Mike

There were no 12 disciples. This is part of Christian Mythology. The number 12 comes from the symbolic meaning of the four corners of the earth (4) times the three "spheres" (heaven, earth, hell).

So when you take 4 x 3 you get 12. Also when you take 4 + 3 you get 7.

So the numbers 7 and 12 had symbolic meaning at that time. Its why for example the number 7 is repeated in the Bible for example. You know "7 trumpets blown seven times"

I just dont get it. Nobody takes the stories found in Greek and Roman Mythology seriously. But some take the stories found in Christian Mythology seriously :Cheeky:

andrewcriddle

If the pastoral epistles were written 110 CE or a little earlier they would provide evidence of a belief at that time that Paul died in Rome.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

Do you think that the author of Luke-Acts also wrote the Pastorals? I have seen a reasonable argument along those lines (that I don't have time to look up now). If so, the Pastorals would be merely part of that author's plot line.

In any case, it's hard to get from a (perhaps theologically based) belief that Paul died in Rome to the validity of the actual fact that Paul died in Rome.

TedM

I guess we all have our subjective opinions. Paul wrote an extensive book to the Romans, which is dates around 56 AD, and in it he expresses his desire to visit them. He also states that the faith of the 'elect' in Rome at that time was "proclaimed in all the world", indicating a susbtantial Christian base by that time. Acts has Paul going to Rome, and being imprisoned, having appealed to Caesar since he was a Roman citizen. Phillipians is considered to have been written by Paul around 59-61AD, adn in it Paul says he is in prison, he mentions the praetorian guard(1:13), and also says "All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household". 1 Peter is controversial, but is considered by some to have been written right after Paul's death by Peter, addressed to Paul's followers. It is claimed to be by Peter, but sounds very Pauline in places. It was written from 'Babylon', a pseudonym for Rome.

I find it easier to place Paul in Rome, and having died there as Clement says, than not. If there was a substantial Christian base which likely only grew over the decades, are we to believe that a false tradition would arise about Paul being there among them just some 50 years after his death? I don't.
As for Peter, we have less to go on, but if he made it to Corinth as Paul indicates, he certainly could have made it to Rome. 1 Peter's authenticity was not in question early on, and the pseudonym of 'Babylon' would seem to have been used falsely only by someone being clever. Again, to reject his precence there is to believe that a false tradition could have arisen despite having a strong base during their lifetimes.

ted