Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So what's your evidence that in the 4 and 5th century people did what you claim they did?

Jeffrey

Matthew and Mark both record Jesus as crying out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me", the intent of which is rather obviously to call to mind all of Psalm 22 based on it's opening line.

I'm not quite certain what point you are trying to make. But is Ps. 22:1 the beginning of the Book of Psalms? And does the fact that Mark & co have Jesus quote from the opening line of that Psalm prove Pete's apparent claim that those who had read books, let alone, Julian's Against the Galileans would remember only the opening of what they read, not to mention that AG was not still in existence and not circulating when Cyril wrote his response to it?

Isn't the reason that Mark and Co put the words of Ps. 21:1 on Jesus lips (assuming that they're doing this is not to be explained as a remembrance of something Jesus actually said before he died) is that they knew well the rest of the Psalm and felt that the portrayal of the righteous sufferer who is confident in his eventual divine vindication was something that fit well into their larger narrative, and that if they didn't know the rest of the Psalm they wouldn't have used any portion of it as "words of Jesus"?

In fact, has Pete ever shown with actual evidence, rather than supposition grounded in supposition, that the hidden assumption of his "argument" about how Cyril could get away with changing Julian's words -- i.e., not only that no one remembered what was said after the opening lines, but that that there were no copies of AG left or in circulation when Cyril wrote -- is true? Where did Cyril get his? And was he the only one to have read what he consulted?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 03-19-2008, 05:10 PM

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The Orante and the Good Shepherd are the only two early Christian independent symbols in human form (neither Jesus nor Mary appear as independent symbols). Both are very early and both are extensively used. After the peace, the Good Shepherd became the most popular representation of Jesus Christ. In contrast to the Orante, as a Christological symbol the Good Shepherd has endured to this day as a sign of Christianity. Like the Orante, the GS (or Buon Pastor) had a long prior history in artistic symbolism. It stems directly from the ancient figure of the good shepherd, the criophorus, ... In the first Christian art it did nor refer to Jesus or to any other Christian person.

May we explore this further?

Is the word christ derived from the word shepherd?

Toto · 03-19-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

...

Is the word christ derived from the word shepherd?

Not at all. The word is derived from the Greek word for oil, as kings were annointed with oil.

youngalexander · 03-19-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is the word christ derived from the word shepherd?

Ram-Bearer
One point re Jesus not being the GS is that the GS is bearing a Ram not a Lamb, ie. male sheep with horns. This imagery is carried over to the GS in Christian representations of the 3rdC up to the Pacem. Its meaning is more likely a symbol of the 'caring' nature of Christian society. Ante Pacem p45

... interpret the Orante as the peace of pietas and the Good Shepherd as humanitas.

AP has a great deal more about the GS.

Jesus is not represented in Callixtus until mid 3rdC or later. I suspect that the particular nature and theological predilictions of the Christians using that burial site explain this.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-19-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

...

Is the word christ derived from the word shepherd?

Not at all. The word is derived from the Greek word for oil, as kings were annointed with oil.

Actually, as van Der Woude notes in the TDNT entry on χρίω, χριστός, ἀντίχριστος, χρῖσμα, χριστιανός, the word χριστός is derived from χρίω ((see too LSJ) which means “to rub the body or parts of it,” “to stroke it,” “to rub or stroke oneself.” When used with oils or fats (→ II, 470, 28; IV, 800, 2) it means “to smear,” “to anoint,” “to anoint oneself.”

χρίω is mostly in the LXX a transl. of חמשׁח, Only once is it used for יסך at Ex. 30:32 and twice for סוך at Dt. 28:40; Ez. 16:9.

χριστός, χριστή, χριστόν is a verbal adj. and. means “spreadable,” “smeared on,” “anointed,” as noun τὸ χριστόν “ointment,” cf. πότερα δὲ χριστὸν ἢ ποτὸν τὸ φάρμακον; Eur. Hipp., 516; Aesch. Prom., 480. ἀρτίχριστον means “fresh ointment” Soph. Trach., 687. χριστός is never related to persons outside the LXX, the NT, and dependent writings.

The Greek word for shepherd/herdsman is ποιμήν.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 03-20-2008, 12:23 AM

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Qawrama is the name of a preserved lamb fat--known as a kind of duhniyat--a fat or grease used for cooking in Lebanese and Syrian dishes, and the name of a dish of mutton or beef cut into small pieces and braised with lots of onions and tomatoes. The preserved lamb is made by cooking fatty mutton or lamb's tail (usually), but also shoulder meat, with abundant salt and then pouring the browned meat and its fat into preserving jars. The sheep favored by Arab cooks are the fat- tailed species (Ovis aries L. platura), with tails that are very wide and up to two feet long, mostly all fat, that were introduced to the Levant by the Turks. Another domesticated species from Arabia (Ovis aries L. dolichura) was described by Herodotus as having their long, fat, heavy tails carried by little carts. After the preparation is made, a layer of fat solidifies on top. The cook scoops out spoonfuls of it to use in various dishes, including vegetable cookery. Should you feel like giving it a try, grind together equal amounts of lamb fat and boneless lamb shoulder and neck meat. Place this in a stew pot or saucepan and simmer over medium-low heat, adding abundant salt (1 1/2 teaspoons per pound of meat mixture) and a mixture of black pepper and baharat, about 1 tablespoon spice mix per pound of mixed meat. Simmer for 6 hours, and then pour off the fat into a container with some of the meat. Freeze for up to 6 months and use for the cooking fat in meat recipes.

http://www.cliffordawright.com/caw/f...lay.php/id/49/

Quote:

Scientists hope close study of temperature regulation in newborn lambs may lead to new treatments for human obesity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3629821.stm

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Exodus
Chapter 29 1 "This is the rite you shall perform in consecrating them as my priests. Procure a young bull and two unblemished rams. 2 With fine wheat flour make unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers spread with oil, 3 and put them in a basket. Take the basket of them along with the bullock and the two rams. 4 Aaron and his sons you shall also bring to the entrance of the meeting tent, and there wash them with water. 5 Take the vestments and clothe Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself, and the breastpiece, fastening the embroidered belt of the ephod around him. 6 Put the miter on his head, the sacred diadem on the miter. 7 Then take the anointing oil and anoint him with it, pouring it on his head. 8 Bring forward his sons also and clothe them with the tunics, 9 gird them with the sashes, and tie the turbans on them. Thus shall the priesthood be theirs by perpetual law, and thus shall you ordain Aaron and his sons. 10 "Now bring forward the bullock in front of the meeting tent. There Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. 11 Then slaughter the bullock before the LORD, at the entrance of the meeting tent. 12 Take some of its blood and with your finger put it on the horns of the altar. All the rest of the blood you shall pour out at the base of the altar. 13 All the fat that covers its inner organs, as well as the lobe of its liver and its two kidneys, together with the fat that is on them, you shall take and burn on the altar. 14 But the flesh and hide and offal of the bullock you must burn up outside the camp, since this is a sin offering. 15 "Then take one of the rams, and after Aaron and his sons have laid their hands on its head, 16 slaughter it. The blood you shall take and splash on all the sides of the altar. 17 Cut the ram into pieces; its inner organs and shanks you shall first wash, and then put them with the pieces and with the head. 18 The entire ram shall then be burned on the altar, since it is a holocaust, a sweet-smelling oblation to the LORD. 19 "After this take the other ram, and when Aaron and his sons have laid their hands on its head, 20 slaughter it. Some of its blood you shall take and put on the tip of Aaron's right ear and on the tips of his sons' right ears and on the thumbs of their right hands and the great toes of their right feet. Splash the rest of the blood on all the sides of the altar. 21 Then take some of the blood that is on the altar, together with some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle this on Aaron and his vestments, as well as on his sons and their vestments, that his sons and their vestments may be sacred. 22 1 "Now, from this ram you shall take its fat: its fatty tail, the fat that covers its inner organs, the lobe of its liver, its two kidneys with the fat that is on them, and its right thigh, since this is the ordination ram; 23 then, out of the basket of unleavened food that you have set before the LORD, you shall take one of the loaves of bread, one of the cakes made with oil, and one of the wafers. 24 2 All these things you shall put into the hands of Aaron and his sons, so that they may wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. 25 After you have received them back from their hands, you shall burn them on top of the holocaust on the altar as a sweet-smelling oblation to the LORD. 26 Finally, take the breast of Aaron's ordination ram and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; this is to be your own portion. 27 3 "Thus shall you set aside the breast of whatever wave offering is waved, as well as the thigh of whatever raised offering is raised up, whether this be the ordination ram or anything else belonging to Aaron or to his sons. 28 Such things are due to Aaron and his sons from the Israelites by a perpetual ordinance as a contribution. From their peace offerings, too, the Israelites shall make a contribution, their contribution to the LORD. 29 "The sacred vestments of Aaron shall be passed down to his descendants, that in them they may be anointed and ordained. 30 The descendant who succeeds him as priest and who is to enter the meeting tent to minister in the sanctuary shall be clothed with them for seven days. 31 "You shall take the flesh of the ordination ram and boil it in a holy place. 32 At the entrance of the meeting tent Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram and the bread that is in the basket. 33 They themselves are to eat of these things by which atonement was made at their ordination and consecration; but no layman may eat of them, since they are sacred. 34 If some of the flesh of the ordination sacrifice or some of the bread remains over on the next day, this remnant must be burned up; it is not to be eaten, since it is sacred. 35 Carry out all these orders in regard to Aaron and his sons just as I have given them to you. "Seven days you shall spend in ordaining them, 36 4 sacrificing a bullock each day as a sin offering, to make atonement. Thus also shall you purge the altar in making atonement for it; you shall anoint it in order to consecrate it. 37 Seven days you shall spend in making atonement for the altar and in consecrating it. Then the altar will be most sacred, and whatever touches it will become sacred. 38 5 "Now, this is what you shall offer on the altar: two yearling lambs as the sacrifice established for each day; 39 one lamb in the morning and the other lamb at the evening twilight. 40 With the first lamb there shall be a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a fourth of a hin of oil of crushed olives and, as its libation, a fourth of a hin of wine. 41 The other lamb you shall offer at the evening twilight, with the same cereal offering and libation as in the morning. You shall offer this as a sweet-smelling oblation to the LORD. 42 Throughout your generations this established holocaust shall be offered before the LORD at the entrance of the meeting tent, where I will meet you and speak to you. 43 "There, at the altar, I will meet the Israelites; hence, it will be made sacred by my glory. 44 Thus I will consecrate the meeting tent and the altar, just as I also consecrate Aaron and his sons to be my priests. 45 I will dwell in the midst of the Israelites and will be their God. 46 They shall know that I, the LORD, am their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, so that I, the LORD, their God, might dwell among them.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus29.htm

youngalexander · 03-20-2008, 02:03 AM

Geez Clive, some of us bibbers require direction and guidance!:huh:

andrewcriddle · 03-20-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

The Greek word for shepherd/herdsman is ποιμήν.

FWIW the Poimandres, the most important of the Hermetic tracts, gets its title from "Shepherd of Men"

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 03-20-2008, 05:02 AM

Also FWIW "The Shepherd of Hermas"
was bound by Eusebius to the canon
(under orders) as early as 331 CE.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-20-2008, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Also FWIW "The Shepherd of Hermas"
was bound by Eusebius to the canon
(under orders) as early as 331 CE.

Thanks for once again riding your hobby horse in a thread which has nothing to do with it.

Jeffrey

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03-20-2008, 02:03 AM	#67
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	Geez Clive, some of us bibbers require direction and guidance!:huh:

03-20-2008, 05:02 AM	#69
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Also FWIW "The Shepherd of Hermas" was bound by Eusebius to the canon (under orders) as early as 331 CE.

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