Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-11-2008, 11:58 AM

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08755b.htm

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One of the few Christian symbols dating from the first century is that of the Good Shepherd carrying on His shoulders a lamb or a sheep, with two other sheep at his side. Between the first and the fourth century eighty-eight frescoes of this type were depicted in the Roman catacombs.

The signification which may be attached to this symbol, according to Wilpert's interpretation, is as follows. The lamb or sheep on the shoulders of the Good Shepherd is a symbol of the soul of the deceased being borne by Our Lord into heaven; whereas the two sheep accompanying the Shepherd represent the saints already enjoying eternal bliss. This interpretation is in harmony with an ancient liturgical prayer for the dead of the following tenor: "We pray God . . . to be merciful to him in judgment, having redeemed him by His death, freed him from sin, and reconciled him with the Father. May He be to him the Good Shepherd and carry him on His shoulders [to the fold] May He receive him in the following of the King, and grant him to participate in eternal joy in the Society of the saints" (Muratori, "Lit. Rom. Vet.", I, 751). In catacomb frescoes this petition is represented as already granted; the deceased is in the company of the saints.

Another cycle of catacomb paintings (not numerous) represents a lamb, or a sheep, with a milk-pail either on its back or suspended from a pastoral staff. A unique fresco of this order shows a shepherd milking a sheep, while still another shows milk-pail on an altar between two sheep. The frescoes of this type (of the sheep and milk-pail) were, until recently, generally regarded as symbols of the Eucharist, but Mgr. Wilpert dissents from the received opinion, and regards all frescoes in which allusions to milk occur as symbolic of the joys of Heaven.

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...ally_live.html

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On the theory that Christ was crucified, how shall we explain the fact that during the first eight centuries of the evolution of Christianity, Christian art represented a lamb, and not a man, as suffering on the cross for the salvation of the world? Neither the paintings in the Catacombs nor the sculptures on Christian tombs pictured a human figure on the cross. Everywhere a lamb was shown as the Christian symbol -- a lamb carrying a cross, a lamb at the foot of a cross, a lamb on a cross. Some figures showed the lamb with a human head, shoulders and arms, holding a cross in his hands -- the lamb of God in process of assuming the human form -- the crucifixion myth becoming realistic. At the close of the eighth century, Pope Hadrian I, confirming the decree of the sixth Synod of Constantinople, commanded that thereafter the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross. It took Christianity eight hundred years to develop the symbol of its suffering Savior. For eight hundred years, the Christ on the cross was a lamb. But if Christ was actually crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb? In the light of history and reason, and in view of a lamb on the cross, why should we believe in the Crucifixion?

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Let me enumerate a few points with regard to the Vernal Equinox. In the Bible the festival is called the Passover, and its supposed institution by Moses is related in Exodus, ch. xii. In every house a he-lamb was to be slain, and its blood to be sprinkled on the doorposts of the house. Then the Lord would pass over and not smite that house. The Hebrew word is pasach, to pass.[1] The lamb slain was called the Paschal Lamb. But what was that lamb? Evidently not an earthly lamb--(though certainly the earthly lambs on the hillsides WERE just then ready to be killed and eaten)--but the heavenly Lamb, which was slain or sacrificed when the Lord "passed over" the equator and obliterated the constellation Aries. This was the Lamb of God which was slain each year, and "Slain since the foundation of the world." This period of the Passover (about the 25th March) was to be[2] the beginning of a new year. The sacrifice of the Lamb, and its blood, were to be the promise of redemption. The door-frames of the houses--symbols of the entrance into a new life--were to be sprinkled with blood.[3] Later, the imagery of the saving power of the blood of the Lamb became more popular, more highly colored. (See St. Paul's epistles, and the early Fathers.) And we have the expression "washed in the blood of the Lamb" adopted into the Christian Church.

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyag...eraquarius.htm

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Moschoforos.htm

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Apollo

Apollo was the son of Zeus and Leto, and a twin with Artemis. Persecuted by Hera, his mother fled to Delos, where he was born, and where the anniversary of his birth was celebrated with much magnificence. Apollo is one of the great gods of Greece, indigenous to the country, and not, as some have conjectured, an importation from Asia, whatever resemblances his characteristics may offer with several Oriental deities. That he is a sun-god appears certain, but he is not a solar figure in the sense that Helios is, but rather repre�*sents the noble, dusk-dispelling civilising agency of the orb of day. He slays with his golden arrows the Python, the serpent of night, and the myth of his sojourn among the Hyperboreans of the North exemplifies the yearly voyage of the sun and its absence from temperate climates during the winter months. On its return to Delphi — the scene of his combat with the python — games were held in his honour, and signal sacrifices enacted in his name. As Apollo Nomios, he is the protector of herds, and he stands in very close relation to prophecy, especially in its oracular phases. His oracle at Delphi was the most famous in Greece, where he spoke by the mouth of the Pythia, or priestess. In his Delphic character he was also the expiator of crime, and the alleviator of remorse. He, probably in his sun-character, was also a sender of plagues and pestilences. Sunstrokes and miasmic exhalations would thus be attributed to his agency. As god of prophecy and of the poetic fervour induced by divination, he was also regarded as patron of music and poetry. He is usually portrayed as the ideal of youthful manly beauty, usually with a lyre, and crowned with laurel; but in his character of archer-god he is usually nude, as in the celebrated statue of the Apollo Belvedere in the Vatican. As god of the harvest he signifies the return of solar activity. The doe, the roe, and the wolf were sacred to him.

He fell in love with the maiden, Chione, who bore him a son, Philammon.

http://400.wikidot.com/apollo

Is Jesus Apollo?

Sheshbazzar · 03-11-2008, 01:39 PM

"A rose by any other name....."
Does a god by any other name, also still smell the same?

ph2ter · 03-12-2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

One of the few Christian symbols dating from the first century is that of the Good Shepherd carrying on His shoulders a lamb or a sheep, with two other sheep at his side. Between the first and the fourth century eighty-eight frescoes of this type were depicted in the Roman catacombs.

As a curiosity Apollo The Shepherd is one of the saints of Coptic Church.
I believe that the Good Shepherd has some connection with Apollo and other vegetation deities.
In Indo-European mythologies the son of thunder god is kidnaped by underworld god (usually depicted as a dragon) which is situated in the distant land of eternal spring and greenery. That god is protector of cattle and pastures. There in his green land abducted son grows up pasturing his cattle. In spring abducted son kills his step father with the sword and returns from the distant land bringing the spring to the human's land. Marry his own sister, is then killed by his real father with the thunderbolt. On the New Year's eve his body (the tree) is burned and ashes left have magical and reanimate power. From the ashes the son is born again and the story repeats every year. In Catholic Church ashes which is left after burning trees of the previous years Palm Sunday ceremonies is used for the rituals of Ash Wednesday. Clear sign that the tree represents the body of vegetation god which is in IE mythiologies son of supreme god.
Althogh someone would ascribe that interpretation to the Covent Garden school of mythologists obsessed with vegetables, I still believe that it has some connection with the Christ myth.

jules? · 03-12-2008, 02:35 AM

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Originally Posted by ph2ter

Quote:

One of the few Christian symbols dating from the first century is that of the Good Shepherd carrying on His shoulders a lamb or a sheep, with two other sheep at his side. Between the first and the fourth century eighty-eight frescoes of this type were depicted in the Roman catacombs.

As a curiosity Apollo The Shepherd is one of the saints of Coptic Church.
I believe that the Good Shepherd has some connection with Apollo and other vegetation deities.
In Indo-European mythologies the son of thunder god is kidnaped by underworld god (usually depicted as a dragon) which is situated in the distant land of eternal spring and greenery. That god is protector of cattle and pastures. There in his green land abducted son grows up pasturing his cattle. In spring abducted son kills his step father with the sword and returns from the distant land bringing the spring to the human's land. Marry his own sister, is then killed by his real father with the thunderbolt. On the New Year's eve his body (the tree) is burned and ashes left have magical and reanimate power. From the ashes the son is born again and the story repeats every year. In Catholic Church ashes which is left after burning trees of the previous years Palm Sunday ceremonies is used for the rituals of Ash Wednesday. Clear sign that the tree represents the body of vegetation god which is in IE mythiologies son of supreme god.
Althogh someone would ascribe that interpretation to the Covent Garden school of mythologists obsessed with vegetables, I still believe that it has some connection with the Christ myth.

coud you referance the 'son of a thunder god that is kidnapped by the dragon/underworld god'

Ta,

ph2ter · 03-12-2008, 05:34 AM

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jules? rote:
coud you referance the 'son of a thunder god that is kidnapped by the dragon/underworld god'

The theme repeates in some Indoeuropean mythologies. Information for that I got from the reconstruction of Slavic mythology. This detail is nowhere directly stated, but can be gathered from the comparative analysis of folk texts about Jarilo who is son of Perun, the Thunder god. The story resembles some details of Apollo's story like his sojourn among Hiperboreans in a distand land before killing the Python (a dragon) and returning to Greece in spring. In Hittite version the Sun-god is kidnapped by the Sea-god and released when Telepinus - vegetation god and firstborn son of the Storm-god came for him, but in other story Telepinus is losing himself in the steppe and when returns home, restores fertility.

Clivedurdle · 03-13-2008, 07:52 AM

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the Covent Garden school of mythologists obsessed with vegetables,

:notworthy::notworthy:

But a roast lamb of god with two vegs does look plausible!

Has anyone asked if all the various lamb and good shepherd pictures actually are xian?

skepticalbip · 03-13-2008, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

the Covent Garden school of mythologists obsessed with vegetables,

But a roast lamb of god with two vegs does look plausible!

mountainman · 03-13-2008, 11:01 PM

Constantine was the grandson of a goat-herder from the Danube lands, and as such knew very well how to separate the sheep from the goats.

Clivedurdle · 03-14-2008, 03:30 AM

But has anyone looked carefully at the catacombs and asked are they representing Apollo or Jesus? Is it not an assumption that the good shepherd is Jesus when Apollo is a pre existing good shepherd?

Are not the catacombs representing the true gods?

Clivedurdle · 03-14-2008, 03:41 AM

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Catacombs were by no means a Christian or an exclusively Roman invention. The custom of burying the dead in underground rock chambers goes far back into antiquity. Catacombs are found all over the Mediterranean world: in Malta, near the ancient capital of the island; in Sicily, near Taormina, Syracuse, and elsewhere; in Egypt, near Alexandria and Cairo; in Lebanon, near Sidon (now Ṣaydā); and at many places in Italy, especially around Naples and in ancient Etruria.
The early Christian catacombs of Rome are located in a rough circle about three miles from the centre of the city. About 40 chambers are known, and most are found near the main roads leading into the city. They are the most extensive of all known catacombs, and portions are open to visitors.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/home#t...20Encyclopedia

Has anyone asked why xians adopted catacombs? We have shown persecution was nowhere as great as alleged, so later xian explanations should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

And were they really xian or is that again an assumption? Might they be worshippers of Apollo and women's naughty bits?

Britannia notes it was extremely unlikely they were used as large scale meeting places.

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03-11-2008, 01:39 PM	#2
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"A rose by any other name....." Does a god by any other name, also still smell the same?

03-13-2008, 11:01 PM	#8
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Constantine was the grandson of a goat-herder from the Danube lands, and as such knew very well how to separate the sheep from the goats.

03-14-2008, 03:30 AM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But has anyone looked carefully at the catacombs and asked are they representing Apollo or Jesus? Is it not an assumption that the good shepherd is Jesus when Apollo is a pre existing good shepherd? Are not the catacombs representing the true gods?

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