Sheshonq

Probably because the alleged fulfillment doesn't match the prophecy, and the defenders of the prophecy are doing such a suck-ass poor job of supporting their claims.

No, it isn't.

If you think this is predicted, then cite chapter and verse.

No, it is not.

Because we know more about the topic than you do. Sometimes it really is JUST THAT SIMPLE.

Sheshonq

All you have to do is identify them precisely in such a way that no one else could fulfill the prophecy. Naming names isn't necessary.

Actually, Ezekiel said that Nebuchadnezzar and his armies would do that. They failed to do so.

Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

And in point of fact, even Alexander:

(a) didn't destroy Tyre;
(b) didn't throw any of the city's materials into the sea, since he used rubble from the mainland colonies, not the city;

So Alexander hardly rescues your interpretation from being tossed on the junk heap.

No, that is the interpretation you are trying to peddle to use here, hoping that we will buy it. You haven't come close to proving that is the interpretation, however.

You always seem to skip that necessary middle part - you know, proving? :rolling:

Johnny Skeptic

That is not the issue. Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, and that the magi would visit Herod, would more Jews have accepted Jesus? If not, why not?

But why would Daniel have made prophecies that the vast majority of the people in the world would dispute if he could easily have made indisputable prophecies that almost no one would have disputed?

Is it your position that God is not able to convince everyone that he is able to predict the future? What you lack are reasonble mtoives why God predicts the future. No reasonable motives = no God of the Bible. No decent man is able to love a God whose motives are unknown.

Johnny Skeptic

That is not the issue. Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, and that the magi would visit Herod, would more Jews have accepted Jesus? If not, why not?

But why would Daniel have made prophecies that the vast majority of the people in the world would dispute if he could easily have made indisputable prophecies that almost no one would have disputed?

Is it your position that God is not able to convince everyone that he is able to predict the future? What you lack are reasonable mtoives why God predicts the future. No reasonable motives = no God of the Bible. No decent man is able to love a God whose motives are unknown.

Jack the Bodiless

...And this particular naysayer is still asking for the actual "prophecies", and still hasn't been given them! :wave:

Once again: where is this predicted? And let's have no more references to the return from the Babylonian Exile, please. Or promises that the Jews will "never again be uprooted" that have ALREADY failed because they were written before the Diaspora.

angelo

And this naysayer asks. Where was the God of Israel when the Nazis were gassing them by the millions? He surely wouldn't be on the side of Nazism at that particular period of time would he?
If that is your god, you are more than welcome to him/her/it. I want no part of it.

WVIncagold

Predicting the future then negates free will. Pure and simple. if millions of people have free will, as supposed by many, given us by god thereby our ability to worship yea or nae, then how can the future be predicted? There are way to many variables to contend with for any outcome to happen. For predictions to "work" you have to negate free will. So all prophecy must be self fulfilling otherwise it negates free will. Man says something thousand of years in the past and then says that it conforms to what just happened because after all they new of the prophecy in the past and decided it must be restored. Besides the tabernacle has not been restored or the House that houses god. Besides if this fulfills the prophecy why did it take 60 years before anything happens. It would of been immediate in 1948 not a dribble filter effect. Besides when it does happen Christians are going to bite the big one with all us sinners because after all they worship a false Prophet called Jesus and conveniently "stole" the Jewish god away. So in the end the Jews are the chosen people not Christians. only Jews will go to heaven with Yahweh not Christians. Christians stole a god. what higher crime is there? Considering the OT Yahweh i do not think he would look lightly on any Christian that pretended to steal him away from HIS CHOSEN people. If you ain't a Jew your going to suffer the same fate as all us poor unbelievers.

angelo

The predictions made about Israel in the O/T were made at the time of the Babylonian conquest. NOT for any time in the distant future. It was a hope by the leaders of the Israelis that one day they would re-posses their land that was taken from them.
That the christians think it means the present time, shows how their willing to grasp at any straw to prove their beliefs.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, some Jews have returned, but the issue is "Why did the Jews return?" If the God of the Bible does not exist, then Abraham falsely believed that God exists, and that he promised him and his descendants all of land of Canaan. Since you obviously still do not understand what a self-fulfilled prophecy is, let me explain to you what a self-fulfilled prophecy is in terms that the average sixth-grader would be able to understand. If the Koran said that a Muslim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and a Muslim temple was rebuilt in Mecca, you would claim that that was a self-fulfilled prophecy because you know that all that it takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true.

Who granted Jews control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate and unfair amount of land per capita? Answer, 33 governments, 32 which are predominantly Christian governments, and the Russian government. At the time of the partition, Russia was joyfully receiving lots of aid from the U.S. for rebuilding purposes because of the Second World War.

Who voted against the partition? Answer, 13 governments, 12 which are non-Christian governments, and the Greek government, which is nominally Christian.

Where did the Jews get all of their money and military equipment from? Answer, mostly from Jews and Christians.

If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestinians instead of Jews, would the U.N. had granted control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate and unfair amount of land per capita to the Palestinians? Answer, no, which proves that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy. If it was not a self-fulfilled prophecy, the U.N. would have voted the same way.

Israel can never be proof of God's existence in this life. In the NASB, 2 Samuel 7:10 says "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old." The Partition of Palestine most certainly did not fulfill that prophecy, and it never will because the Jews are surrounded by hostile neighbors, because some terrorists live in Israel, because some Muslim countries are developing nuclear weapons, because the Bible says that there will always be wars and rumors of wars in this life, and because the Bible says that during the last days, nation will rise against nation.

There is not any doubt whatsoever that Jews expected to have a homeland of their own where no one would bother them in this life, not in the next life. Therefore, God deceived the Jews.

Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Although Christians blame the Jews for not knowing who Jesus was, it was God's fault. If Micah had said that the messiah would become ruler of a heavenly kingdom, and that he would heal people, and that he would be crucified and rise from the dead, and that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, there are not any doubts whatsoever that a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus.

A God who wanted to use prophecy for anything would make lots of indisputable predictions that would discourage dissent instead of needlessly inviting dissent. No reasonable motives = no God of the Bible.

sugarhitman

A self-fulfilling prophecy? Suurrre mate. Israel is proof that God exist. All one has to do is pick up the KJV bible and study the prophets. Many prophecies about a scattering of the Jews are made AFTER the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and a restoration after the first. The Jews in restoring their nation in 1948 encountered enormous resistence which has produced 4 wars and international Terrorism that revolves around the land of Israel and Jerusalem. This dispute has caused the U.N. to be quite hostile to Israel so much so that Israel does not trust it. These nations are seeking to diminish Israel's territory and to snatch Jerusalem from out of their hands. ALL FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE HOW MUCH MORE EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED THIS PROVES WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT GOD EXISTS.....AND HIS WORDS TRUE.