Ebonmuse

Can anyone jog my memory? I'm trying to remember the specific name for this heresy: it was a Christian group who believed that, once you're saved, the Holy Ghost enters your body and takes over your free will so that you can never commit sins again. I'm positive that I heard of such a sect existing at one point, but now I can't remember what it was called for the life of me.

Any help would be much appreciated.

yummyfur

I think it's from a sect of heretics in Paris at about the time of the Albigensian heresy,(late 12th early 13th century) called Amalricians, named after Amalric of Bena.

Caesarius of Heisterbach, from "Dialogue on Miracles V" chapter XXII
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...CHAPTER%20XXII

"They said it was idolatry to set up altars to the saints, or to burn incense before the sacred images, and that he who kissed the bones of the martyrs did it with his tongue in his cheek. But the worst blasphemy that they dared to utter was against the Holy Spirit, from Whom is derived all purity and holiness. They said that if anyone were in there spirit, even if he were to commit fornication or any other defilement, yet there would be no sin in him, because that Spirit, who is God, being altogether separate from the flesh, cannot sin, and the man, who is nothing, cannot sin, so long as that Spirit, who is God, is in him ; for it is the same God that worketh all in all (I Cor. xii. 6). From whence they admitted that each one of them was both Christ and the Holy Spirit ; and them was fulfilled that saying of the gospel: False Christs and false prophets shall arise etc. (Matt. xxiv.24). These most unhappy men had utterly worthless arguments of their own with which they strove to support their errors. Their theological perfidy was discovered in the following way."

Ebonmuse

That looks like the one, all right. Thanks!

gstafleu

That sounds like a great heresy to me. Did I understand it correctly?

1) You belive in Christ.
2) The holy spirit then enters you.
3) You can now fornicate away because the holy spirit cannot sin.

Good plan, the power of positive thinking I'd say.

yummyfur

yep

Paris can have that effect on you

Looking somemore, it seems Amalric was probably influenced by Johannes Scotus Eriugena, who had similar philisophical theories about the Holy Spirit, he was an Irish theologian, neo-platonist, from the 9th century, he taught in France for awhile. I don't think Eriugena ever had a heresy named after him though.

The bad part in Eriugena's philosopshy was that at the end of the world, there will be no division of the sexes or sex, so I guess you have to get it before the end

gstafleu

Actually, this brings up an interesting question: what does orthodoxy say about this. I take it that in heaven we still have the normal number of sexes, at least I don't remember anything to the contrary. So does that mean you can fornicate away in heaven? I'd think that in heaven you would have a similar situation as with the holy spirit in you: you cannot sin in heaven. Or can you?

yummyfur

This particular idea of Eriugena was called heretical in the 13th century, not sure if anyone subscribes to it today. So I assume most Christians who beleive in bodily ressurection believe we will still have our usual gonads.

Ebonmuse

As I recall, there's a verse in the gospels where Jesus says there will be no marriage in Heaven. So that probably means you can either have sex with anyone, or you can't have sex at all - take your pick.

yummyfur

Are you saying it will be a choice when you get in? "please mark wether you want the sex with anyone optioin*, or the sex with no one option, also please specify if you need a kosher or diabetic meal"

*(subject to avialability, no virgins available except if you chose option Allah's paradise, linux fanboys excluded)

Yeah, Mark 12:25, Matthew 22:30, Luke 20:35 , they also say we will be like angels, so not sure if angels get to fornicate or not, maybe god will have sex through them, if you interpret Gabriel's meeting with Mary in a certain naughty way

Ebonmuse

Well, if you believe the theology set forth by Kevin Smith in Dogma, angels are anatomically neuter and lack genitalia. That would seem to put a bit of a damper on the whole sex-in-Heaven idea. On the other hand, if you read what the Bible says about them, angels are winged beings with four faces, three human and one animal... I decline to speculate on the mechanics of that.