Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 02-06-2007, 08:00 AM

This is too funny, I pointed out that the Bible doesn't say that you go to heaven after you die and these Christians are falling all over themselves trying to figure it out:

http://www.christiandiscussionforums...ad.php?t=39310

recklessmind · 02-06-2007, 11:19 AM

you have to register to read the forum...

Malachi151 · 02-06-2007, 11:37 AM

Oh damn, I forgot about that. My post:

Quote:

According to the New Testament scriptures, the expectation of "being saved" and having "eternal life" only comes after the coming or second coming of Jesus, when he destroys the world and create a new perfect world.

All early Christians believed that the end of the world was imminent, going to be within their lifetime, and thus they would go to "heaven" when the end of the world happened, but there is nothing about simply going to heaven after you die, only that when Christ came to destroy the world, THEN people would be resurrected into the new life.

So, according to the Bible, anyone expecting to go to heaven when they die will be in for a rude awakening....

Got lots of replies from people trying to come up with justifications for the belief that they will go immediately to heaven, all quite major stretches.

This one was telling though:

Quote:

I bet that you've opened a can of worms with this one. But, I believe from what I have read in the bible, that you are right. We will be in a sleeping type state until Jesus returns, which will be after the tribulation.

Ben C Smith · 02-06-2007, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

This one was telling though....

The idea that we sleep until our resurrection is called soul-sleep in some circles. One of the usual passages pulled out to counter this idea is Philippians 1.23; another is Revelation 6.9-11. (The latter is a pretty good passage for showing that the dead, at least martyrs, are in heaven during the time between their demise and their resurrection, but not very good for showing that heaven means perfect bliss, since these souls under the altar seem quite discontented.)

Ben.

gstafleu · 02-06-2007, 12:34 PM

This Revelations bit deserves quoting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

So first of all the only souls under the altar are those of people who were killed for their proselytizing, a form of poetic justice I suppose. But even when the seals were being opened it was apparently not yet time for God to take action against the fundy bashers: this was only to be done once the expense for the progrom could be justified by a larger amount of bashed fundies then available at the time. I'm not sure if this passage is generally reassuring for fundies. If I were them I'd ignore it.

Gerard Stafleu

Malachi151 · 02-06-2007, 12:42 PM

I still say that we should make a CGI movie literal interpretation Revelation, what a great flick that would be

WishboneDawn · 02-06-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I still say that we should make a CGI movie literal interpretation Revelation, what a great flick that would be

I think a night of hallucenigenic substance abuse would produce some like Revelations and be a whole lot cheaper.

jeffevnz · 02-06-2007, 07:09 PM

Although, from your own conscious point of view, there would be no difference between going straight to heaven, and being dead for a while first. Assuming, that is, that being dead for a while is like being asleep and not dreaming.

Strictly speaking, though, you've got them.

Casper · 02-07-2007, 11:44 AM

This is exactly what the JWs teach, among others.

02-06-2007, 08:00 AM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	LOL, really got some Christians going with a question about heaven... This is too funny, I pointed out that the Bible doesn't say that you go to heaven after you die and these Christians are falling all over themselves trying to figure it out: http://www.christiandiscussionforums...ad.php?t=39310

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02-06-2007, 11:19 AM	#2
recklessmind Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Far left of center, I'm told. Posts: 922	you have to register to read the forum...

02-06-2007, 12:42 PM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I still say that we should make a CGI movie literal interpretation Revelation, what a great flick that would be

02-06-2007, 07:09 PM	#8
jeffevnz Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA Posts: 3,370	Although, from your own conscious point of view, there would be no difference between going straight to heaven, and being dead for a while first. Assuming, that is, that being dead for a while is like being asleep and not dreaming. Strictly speaking, though, you've got them.

02-07-2007, 11:44 AM	#9
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	This is exactly what the JWs teach, among others.

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