flapjackboy

OK, here's one that will get the fundies going...

Now, if I remember correctly, Mary and Joseph weren't married when Mary fell pregnant. And, as we know, the penalty at that time for having a child out of wedlock was stoning. This begs the question:

Did Mary claim that Jesus was the 'Son of God' to avoid being stoned? Let's face it, if you're living in an extremely God fearing society, it would be easy to make such a claim and let religious fervour take it from there...

Layman

What is your evidence that stoning was the in-practice form of punishment for getting pregnant while engaged but not married around 4-7 BCE?

Family Man

It is also highly unlikely. It is far more probable that claims of godhood occured much later, probably after the cruxificion.

Jim Larmore

I think if you look in the book of John Chapter 8:1-11 you'll find the story of the woman taken in adultery, ( many think this woman was Mary Magdelence) but in verse 5 it says "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stonbed: But what sayest thou?

The next verse says they did this to tempt Jesus and I think they may have actually set this woman up to do a confrontational meeting with the messiah , however there is no proof of that and I must say this is pure speculation on my part. It does give the evidense scripturally of the law and what it prescribed for adultery back then. I don't know if they were carrying out the letter of the law back then or not.

Its really interesting to read what Jesus did at this meeting. If you read on it says He wrote on the ground and all the accusers left the woman there by herself. I'd bet my pay check the Son of God , the messiah was writing the sins and mis-deeds of the accusers that moments before was screaming to stone her, heck they may have even been with her themselves at some point.

beastmaster

According to the Infancy Gosepl of James, Joseph and Mary underwent and passed a poison ordeal to prove their truthfulness. These passages suggest that the author felt a need to defend the virgin birth story against contemporary skepticism:

Note that these passages do not indicate any intent to stone either Mary or Joseph to death, but rather to call off the marriage and return Mary to the Temple, as a penalty for their wrongdoing.

Layman

According to my handy-dandy RSV, "most ancient manuscripts omit John 7:53-8:11."

But even if it was circulating indepently and correctly added later, it paints a picture of attempted mob justice. Not to an established systemic application of justice.

Most authorities believe that the Jewish Authorities lacked the authority to inflict the death penalty under Roman law.

Doctor X

Jim:

Layman beats me to it: the story is an addition to Jn--I believe it even appears in different places depending on the witness. It also does not mention Mary Magdelene. The whole "fallen woman" thing is a late tradition.

The text quoted by beastmaster demonstrates that the problem pos'd flapjackboy did vex later mythmakers. I am of the opinion that the whole virgin-thang is a late attachment when someone decided to make Junior a "son of a god." It does allow for some snickering in scholarship . . . was she still a virgin when she had James? Do you expect Joseph to buy "that excuse" twice?

Such problems are not a concern for the Synoptics who provide birth stories. Perhaps Jn expands it to the extent he does to remove any sniping.

--J.D.

Sauron

I doubt Mary and Joseph would have improved their situation by following your suggestion. Actually, I think that this would have had the opposite effect you believe.

Trying to explain away an out-of-wedlock pregnancy by saying "God did it" would be far more likely to result in a charge of blasphemy - which under Levitical law was punishable by stoning as well.

SLD

I thought we'd discussed this topic before and determined that it was in the original gospel, but then taken out by later editions only to come back in again? IIRC, didn't Augustine chastise some Christian writers for taking the story out because they thought it condoned sexual sin?

SLD

Amos

The arrival of the Magi is the evidence of a God child, which btw, is still true today and is why the Eastern Rite of the Catholic church doesn't celebrate Christmas until Jan.6