Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gnosis92 · 10-15-2006, 06:23 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061015/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Suspected Shiite militiamen killed at least 46 Sunni Arabs in a weekend rampage of revenge killing in a city north of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry official said Sunday, raising the toll in the latest sectarian bloodletting there to 63."

wtf?

I was not originally against the War in Iraq b/c I figure
1- Iraq will be a secular democracy
2- Iraq will be at peace, with human rights secured
3- cheap oil is a big plus.

I didn't buy into the lie that Bush's reasons to get us involved in war had anything to do with terrorism.

Obviously these original plans didn't pan out, and there is a virtual civil war between Sunnis and Shiites -- why are they murdering one another in Iraq?

Does the Islamic religion sanction violence between Sunnis and Shiites?

Tammuz · 10-15-2006, 06:55 AM

According to a Hadith attributed to Muhammed, the Muslims would split up into 73 sects, and only one would go to heaven, and the others to hell.

Some Sunni scholars make Takfir on the Shiites, i.e declare them to be disbelievers. Now, if you look at it from the Iraqi Sunni fundamentalist perspective, you have a majority of the population being kuffar (disbelievers), and many of those were happy when the "Crusaders" came, because the Shiites have, even though they've been the majority, being ruled by Sunnis since Iraq became a country. From the Sunni fundamentalist view, those Shiites, in addition to being kuffar, are also "aiding" (or silently approving) the "Crusaders" to install a regime which is not fundamentalist Sunnitic. In fact, many Shiites are engaged in that regime. What the Sunni fanatics probably want is to provoke the Shiites enough so that Iraq turns into civil war and beome impossible to rule. If the Shiites also kill Sunnis in retributal (which serves the purpose of the Sunni fanatics), then that will also awake the sleeping giant, the entire body of Sunni Muslims.

There are also Shiite fundamentalists (backed by Iran) who are very intolerant to Sunnis and likely consider them to be kuffar. Those want to install a fundamentalist Shiite regime and may even want to join Iraq with Iran.

What the Sunni fundamentalists ultimately want is to install a Salafist Islamic regime in Iraq. Such a regime would in all likelihood commit genocide against Shiites, just as the Taliban committed genocide against the Hazaras (who are mainly Shiites) in Afghanistan. It would be terrible for the future of the Middle East in particular and the world in general if Iraq became ruled by a Salafist regime.

Naruto · 10-15-2006, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammuz

According to a Hadith attributed to Muhammed, the Muslims would split up into 73 sects, and only one would go to heaven, and the others to hell.

Do you have a source for this?

Tammuz · 10-15-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naruto

Do you have a source for this?

Here are some Hadiths concerning this:

"The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."" [Abu Dawud]

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book divided into seventy-two groups. And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group)." [Imam Ahmad]

"Everyone of them in the Hellfire, except for one group that which I and my companions are upon." [at-Tirmidhi]

countjulian · 10-15-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book divided into seventy-two groups. And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group)." [Imam Ahmad]

This is an interesting ahadith, especially what considering what hte Quran says about groups and factions amongst the Christians and Jews:

Quote:

Ash-Shura[Council](42):13,14
He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him). And they were not divided until after the knowledge came unto them, through rivalry among themselves; and had it not been for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord for an appointed term, it surely had been judged between them. And those who were made to inherit the Scripture after them are verily in hopeless doubt concerning it.

Al-Room[The Romans(meaning Byzantines)](30):30-34
So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not - Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty unto Him and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him); Of those who split up their religion and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets. And when harm toucheth men they cry unto their Lord, turning to Him in repentance; then, when they have tasted of His mercy, behold! some of them attribute partners to their Lord So as to disbelieve in that which We have given them. (Unto such it is said): Enjoy yourselves awhile, but ye will come to know.

gnosis92 · 10-15-2006, 11:03 AM

So why not just partition Iraq?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammuz

According to a Hadith attributed to Muhammed, the Muslims would split up into 73 sects, and only one would go to heaven, and the others to hell.

Some Sunni scholars make Takfir on the Shiites, i.e declare them to be disbelievers. Now, if you look at it from the Iraqi Sunni fundamentalist perspective, you have a majority of the population being kuffar (disbelievers), and many of those were happy when the "Crusaders" came, because the Shiites have, even though they've been the majority, being ruled by Sunnis since Iraq became a country. From the Sunni fundamentalist view, those Shiites, in addition to being kuffar, are also "aiding" (or silently approving) the "Crusaders" to install a regime which is not fundamentalist Sunnitic. In fact, many Shiites are engaged in that regime. What the Sunni fanatics probably want is to provoke the Shiites enough so that Iraq turns into civil war and beome impossible to rule. If the Shiites also kill Sunnis in retributal (which serves the purpose of the Sunni fanatics), then that will also awake the sleeping giant, the entire body of Sunni Muslims.

There are also Shiite fundamentalists (backed by Iran) who are very intolerant to Sunnis and likely consider them to be kuffar. Those want to install a fundamentalist Shiite regime and may even want to join Iraq with Iran.

What the Sunni fundamentalists ultimately want is to install a Salafist Islamic regime in Iraq. Such a regime would in all likelihood commit genocide against Shiites, just as the Taliban committed genocide against the Hazaras (who are mainly Shiites) in Afghanistan. It would be terrible for the future of the Middle East in particular and the world in general if Iraq became ruled by a Salafist regime.

Toto · 10-26-2006, 02:59 PM

The political discussion has been split out here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=184394

10-15-2006, 06:23 AM	#1
gnosis92 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: usa Posts: 3,103	Sunnis and Shiites -- why are they murdering one another in Iraq? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061015/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq "BAGHDAD, Iraq - Suspected Shiite militiamen killed at least 46 Sunni Arabs in a weekend rampage of revenge killing in a city north of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry official said Sunday, raising the toll in the latest sectarian bloodletting there to 63." wtf? I was not originally against the War in Iraq b/c I figure 1- Iraq will be a secular democracy 2- Iraq will be at peace, with human rights secured 3- cheap oil is a big plus. I didn't buy into the lie that Bush's reasons to get us involved in war had anything to do with terrorism. Obviously these original plans didn't pan out, and there is a virtual civil war between Sunnis and Shiites -- why are they murdering one another in Iraq? Does the Islamic religion sanction violence between Sunnis and Shiites?

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10-15-2006, 06:55 AM	#2
Tammuz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,525	According to a Hadith attributed to Muhammed, the Muslims would split up into 73 sects, and only one would go to heaven, and the others to hell. Some Sunni scholars make Takfir on the Shiites, i.e declare them to be disbelievers. Now, if you look at it from the Iraqi Sunni fundamentalist perspective, you have a majority of the population being kuffar (disbelievers), and many of those were happy when the "Crusaders" came, because the Shiites have, even though they've been the majority, being ruled by Sunnis since Iraq became a country. From the Sunni fundamentalist view, those Shiites, in addition to being kuffar, are also "aiding" (or silently approving) the "Crusaders" to install a regime which is not fundamentalist Sunnitic. In fact, many Shiites are engaged in that regime. What the Sunni fanatics probably want is to provoke the Shiites enough so that Iraq turns into civil war and beome impossible to rule. If the Shiites also kill Sunnis in retributal (which serves the purpose of the Sunni fanatics), then that will also awake the sleeping giant, the entire body of Sunni Muslims. There are also Shiite fundamentalists (backed by Iran) who are very intolerant to Sunnis and likely consider them to be kuffar. Those want to install a fundamentalist Shiite regime and may even want to join Iraq with Iran. What the Sunni fundamentalists ultimately want is to install a Salafist Islamic regime in Iraq. Such a regime would in all likelihood commit genocide against Shiites, just as the Taliban committed genocide against the Hazaras (who are mainly Shiites) in Afghanistan. It would be terrible for the future of the Middle East in particular and the world in general if Iraq became ruled by a Salafist regime.

10-26-2006, 02:59 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The political discussion has been split out here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=184394

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