Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sci_Fidelity · 10-27-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Magus55

Quote:

As i said, the Psalmist was writing his opinion. So he said that God would be happy over the slaughter of the children. That in no way means, God actually would be. It was the psalmists opinion and nothing more.

Is this the word of god, or not? Why allow such a damning verse to be included?

Quote:

About the killing of the first born? The Pharaoh ordered the killing of all the male hebrew babies, and the Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go. Got even gave progressive plagues from minimal, to catastrophic. It took the worst plague, the death of the first born babies to change the Pharaoh's mind.

But what on earth did the children do? Why not simply smite the responsible parties, rather than innocent kids?

Is this the best an omnipotent being can come up with? Killing a bunch of kids to influence the pharaoh? Couldn't think of a better way?

Alan N · 10-27-2003, 02:22 PM

So is all scripture god-breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, ect., or not? Also, if this is the psalmist's opinion, how does the rest of the bible escape the same conclusion...just the author's opinion?

rmadison · 10-27-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And what about the killing of the first born? The Pharaoh ordered the killing of all the male hebrew babies, and the Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go. Got even gave progressive plagues from minimal, to catastrophic. It took the worst plague, the death of the first born babies to change the Pharaoh's mind.

Typical Magus - Cherry picking debate topics.

What about Pharaoh, you ask?

Don't you wonder why he wouldn't let the Israelites go?

Exodus 7:2-4
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

And then, lo & behold...big surprise!

Exodus 7:13
13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

And apparently, just one "hardening" wasn't enough, so the LORD did it again!

Exodus 9:12
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

But wait, even that wasn't enough, so he did it again!

Exodus 10:1-2
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD ."

And again!

Exodus 10:19-20
19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. [1] Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

And again!

Exodus 10:27-28
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."

And again!

Exodus 11:9-11
9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you-so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

And then - after FIVE "hardenings" of Pharaoh's heart - the LORD punished Pharaoh by killing all the first born in Egypt.

And why?

Exodus 13:15
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'

Well now...isn't that just special.

Your god is a weak, pathetic, murdering, ego maniac Magus.

What's especially funny is that you don't even understand the doctrine you preach.

Thank god all Christians aren't like that.

hope's daughter · 10-27-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Numbers 22. Ask why God made an ass talk but didn't stop the holocaust.

Or try the heart warming, inspirational psalm 137 which speaks of dashing infants against rocks:

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-
he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks. " (Ps. 137.8-9)

happy is the man who steals babies through armed force and smashes them on rocks? You go God! :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Consider me a Fundie or whatever. You are misapplying the meaning to this particular Psalm. This Psalm is about the Babylonian conquest. It is a psalm of mourning. The Jews had experienced at the hands of the babylonians horrors and brutality. This line is one of deep heart wrentching emotion. They had witnessed such atrocities committed in Jerusalem by the Babylonian army. This is a cry of help for the punishment of the Babylonian army, a very human thing to do.

hope's daughter · 10-27-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
I'm sort of a Christian. You see, I don't believe in silly stuff: the trinity, original sin, penal substituion, global flood, young earth and so on. I don't hate homosexuals, I don't think most of my neigbors will suffer eternal torment in hell. Furthermore, I do not subscribe to an image of God that makes axeheads float, asses talk, Christians die for lying but is too busy to prevent the Holocaust, the storm surge that killed half a million people near Bangladesh or any other huge natural disaster. That is supernatural theism and to be blunt, supernatural theism is arbitrary, incoherent and all out sucks.

Vinnie

Vinnie just forget about it and say you don't believe. This way you can be honest. With your first sentence here you just admited to not adhering to some primary essentials of Christianity. You are still my brother though.

God bless!

hope's daughter · 10-27-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chekmate
Just wondering what some good Bible Verses are good to use against fundies. The only one I know of as of right now is Mathew 6:5-6 (Thx Brighid in another thread):

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

What other good ones are there?

I guess I should have addressed you first. Why even bother to do this? I don't get your point in the least only that it must bug you that Christians believe in the Bible. So what...what is your beef? Why does it bother you so much??? Gosh you get your panties all in a wad over nothing. O or do you? Maybe secretly you want to believe. Well I am not your analyst....so off my couch!

God bless!

Roland · 10-27-2003, 06:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55
[B]Wrong, Jesus claimed to be God.

Not quite accurate. The best one can say is that OTHERS said Jesus claimed to be God. He, himself, never wrote a word.

Actually, only ONE writer claimed Jesus said that, I believe - the guy who wrote the Gospel of John. The other gospel writers don't claim Jesus said that, if I'm not mistaken.

Vinnie · 10-27-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Consider me a Fundie or whatever.

I can't consider you a fundie yet

Magus, well yeah. he should have left a long time ago when I told him too after arguing things like Paul was a follower of Jesus.

Quote:

You are misapplying the meaning to this particular Psalm. This Psalm is about the Babylonian conquest. It is a psalm of mourning. The Jews had experienced at the hands of the babylonians horrors and brutality. This line is one of deep heart wrentching emotion. They had witnessed such atrocities committed in Jerusalem by the Babylonian army. This is a cry of help for the punishment of the Babylonian army, a very human thing to do.

I did not misapply anything. All this was implicit when I posted that. It still says to rejoice at infants being smashed on rocks. Sure it was a different time and culture but I'm not the one who reads the Bible literally and tries to apply its commands today.

Vinnie

Magus55 · 10-27-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bagfullofsnakes
Funny how *Christitans* like Magus continually ignore the explicit warnings of the bible on such things like judgement, and arrogance.

Magus, your arrogance in this case is particularly noteworthy, and since I don't want you to spend eternity in hell, I thought it my civic duty to warn you of the biblical (and therefore eternal) consequences of your extreme arrogance.

You, are in no position to tell another person whether they are a Christian or not.

Samuel II 2:3
3 "Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the LORD is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed.

Psalm 73:7-9
7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.
8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
in their arrogance they threaten oppression.
9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.

Proverbs 8:13
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Isaiah 13:11
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Ezekiel 18:29-31
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?

Matthew 7:1
Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Luke 6:37
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

It's about time you practice what you preach, don't you think Magus?

Pointing out the errors and falseness in other Christians isn't judging.

hope's daughter · 10-27-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bagfullofsnakes
It depends on the context of the argument.

A couple good ol' standbys are:

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 "Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

* For fundies who want to argue that the bible says one thing, but means another. God says that's a no no.

Another good one is Matthew 19:16-21

The Rich Young Man

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[1] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[2] "
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

* Good for those arguments where we can claim that we are justified - biblically - in being atheists. Notice that Jesus says nothing about having faith, or believing, but instead stresses works, deeds. Then, when the fundie points to John 3:16, you can say, "So what are you saying? Is Matthew 19:16-21 wrong? That doesn't fit very well with Romans 30:5-6!" I mean, the whole point of Christianity is salvation, and the bible can't even keep that story straight!

Good times.

(Note: Another good example of this is Matthew 16:27:

27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

I keep a list of verses in my "Bible Verses" folder, in my favorites. Works out pretty good.

Also, I always reference Biblegateway.com, because it's their site. If they see a link to the Skeptics Annotated Bible, they won't even check it out.

One of my favorite verses to point out to well meaning atheists who look through the Bible to find verses they claim contradicts Christians and who feel the Bible justifies them is Psalm 10:3-4 (I have others but this is my favorite). The man greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord. In the pride of his countanence the wicked does not seek him, all his thoughts are , "There is no God".

10-27-2003, 02:22 PM	#32
Alan N Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 68	all scripture God breathed So is all scripture god-breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, ect., or not? Also, if this is the psalmist's opinion, how does the rest of the bible escape the same conclusion...just the author's opinion?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-27-2003, 06:02 PM	#37
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55 [B]Wrong, Jesus claimed to be God. Not quite accurate. The best one can say is that OTHERS said Jesus claimed to be God. He, himself, never wrote a word. Actually, only ONE writer claimed Jesus said that, I believe - the guy who wrote the Gospel of John. The other gospel writers don't claim Jesus said that, if I'm not mistaken.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.