Johnny Skeptic

Message to sugarhitman: You have wasted your time starting a lot of threads on Bible prophecies since my arguments in this post adequately refute all of your arguments regarding Bible prophecy.

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, there are not any doubts whatsoever that at least one more Jew would have accepted Jesus.

I do not really need that argument, or any other argument regarding a particular Bible prophecy. No God who wanted people to believe that he can predict the future would refuse to make indisputable predictions, and needlessly create confusion by making disputable predictions. An example of an indisputable prediction would be a prediction when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year. If the Bible contained lots of predictions like that, there would be no need to debate whether or not at least one being exists who is able to predict the future.

You have not provided any sensible reasons why God makes disputable predictions instead of making indisputable predictions. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why there is not one single indisputable prophecy in the Bible, or in any other religious book.

If you refuse to directly reply to my arguments, I will refuse to directly reply to your arguments, and even if you continue to refuse to directly reply to my arguments, I will still frequently repost them in this thread, and in all of your other threads on Bible prophecy in order to show the undecided crowd that you are not nearly as confident of your arguments as you pretend you are. I will not allow you to be a bully who insists on choosing whose arguments get discussed.

Eldarion Lathria

He is preaching, nothing else.

Eldarion Lathria

Al Fresco

Considering other relevant scripture, it should be obvious to anyone (other than diehard Christian apologists) that various biblical authors were laboring under the misconception that Jesus’ so-called “second coming” was going to occur during their lifetimes. A list of some of these passages (taken from http://home.nctv.com/jackjan/item47.htm ) follows:

Matt. 10:23 (Jesus will return to establish his kingdom before his disciples have preached in all the cities of Israel.)
Matt. 16:27-28 (Some of Jesus’ contemporaries will live to see him coming to “judge each person according to his deeds.”)
Matt. 23:36 (“Yes, all the accumulated judgment of the centuries shall break upon the heads of this very generation.” – The Living Bible Paraphrased)
Matt. 24:15 (When you see the destruction of the temple, remember that this is a fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy.) The prophecy in Dan. 12:1-2 includes the resurrection of the dead.
Mark 13:30 (Some of Jesus’ contemporaries will be alive to see “all these things” including angels gathering the elect from heaven and the entire earth, darkened sun and moon, etc.)
Luke 21:32 (Some of that generation will be alive to see “all things fulfilled.” This encompasses all things written by the prophets [vs. 22] which includes the resurrection of the dead [Dan. 12:1-2], splitting of the Mount of Olives [Zech. 14:4], world peace and justice [Isa. 2:4 and 11:6-9], and building of the third temple [Mic. 4:1 and Ezek. 40-45]. When these things occur you will know that your redemption is close at hand [vs. 28].)
Rom. 13:11-12 (Time is running out. Salvation will occur sooner than we thought.)
Rom. 16:20 (The god of peace will soon crush Satan.)
1 Cor. 7:26-31 (The remaining time is very short and the world is its present form will soon be gone. Things are so uncertain that it would be better not to get married.)
1 Cor. 10:11 (The behaviors of past sinners were given as examples to learn from in these last days as the world nears its end.)
1 Thess. 4:15-18 (The final judgment will occur when some of us are still alive, at which time we will ascend in the clouds to heaven.)
2 Tim. 4:1 (When Jesus comes to set up his kingdom, he will judge the living and the dead.)
Heb. 9:26 (Jesus has appeared at the end of the world to put way sin by sacrificing himself.)
Heb. 10:25-27 (Jesus’ day of returning [at which time God’s awful anger will consume his enemies] is approaching.)
Heb. 10:36-37 (If you want the reward of all things that God has promised you, be patient. His coming will not be delayed much longer.)
Jas. 5:7-9 (Be patient and don’t argue among yourselves. The great Judge is almost here.)
1 Pet. 1:19-20 (Jesus is manifest in these last times.)
1 Pet. 4:5-7 (God is ready to judge the living and the dead. Therefore, be thoughtful men of prayer because the end of all things is coming soon.)
1 Pet. 4:17 (The time has come for the final judgment.)
2 Pet. 3:10-14 (You should try to hasten the day when God will destroy the heavens and earth. While you are waiting for that time, try also to live without sinning.)
1 John 2:18 (We know it is the last times.)
Rev. 10:5-7 (God’s plans, as announced by the prophets, will be fulfilled without delay.)
Rev, 14:15-20 (People will be gathered by angels for the final judgment.)
Rev. 22:10 (The angel warned John that the time of fulfillment is near.)
Rev. 22:12 (Jesus will be coming soon to repay everyone according to his/her deeds.)

Only someone desperate to remove the stigma of false prophecy from the Bible would attempt to misconstrue these passages to mean that they are referring to something that is going to occur far into the distant future.

Steven Carr

Revelation was written in Greek.

In Heaven they speak a different dialect of Greek (not classical, Koine, or Hellenistic), where the word translated 'soon' actually means 'not for thousands of years'.

I'm not sure where you can buy dictionaries for Heavenly Greek. I asked in Borders, but the shop assistant just backed away without answering.

Al Fresco

If you were possessed by the Holy Spirit, you would not need a Heavenly Greek dictionary to translate these passages into proper Christian apologetic language.

Casper

I agree. I think Christians should see the bible as divisive and subversive, and they should discard them immediately.

After all, if you know inside what is true, then you don't need to read the truth to learn what you should already know.

Stacey Melissa

Would you call C.S. Lewis an unbeliever? He called it "the most embarrassing verse in the Bible."

And I can understand the Bible just fine. Your interpretation is nonsense.

Minimalist

Well, Al, you must admit that since they didn't happen in the past that the bible-thumpers don't have much else to hang their hats on.

:Cheeky:

Al Fresco

As shown in the link in my first post, some of them actually do claim these verses refer to something that happened in 70 C.E.

What Christian apologists need is something to hang their evidence-deflecting helmets and reality-distorting goggles on.

Jayrok

Do you even read the bible or do you just visit apologetic websites?

You mentioned Daniel 9:

Dan 9:25-27: "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

You are contradicting yourself.

You are saying the people (Rome) of the ruler (anti-christ) came to destroy the city and temple. You said two things were mentioned there, but conveniently left out the third thing mentioned... the anti-christ:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven. The anti-christ will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and suffering... and on the wing of the TEMPLE he will set up an abomination, blah blah blah..

If Rome destroying the temple in AD 70 fulfilled this from Daniel and the ruler was the anti-christ... Then that same ruler was supposed to set up a covenant for a time. Then in the middle he was to put an end to sacrifice.

AFAIK there hasn't been a sacrifice in the temple of jerusalem since the first century.

If the "anti-christ" is supposed to put an end to sacrifice and even more importantly, set up anything on the WING of the TEMPLE, then he'd better build another temple first because there is no temple in Jerusalem. Just a muslim mosque.

Unless you are claiming the anti-christ was the Roman emporer in the first century. If that's the case you have other problems.

You pick and choose which passages you want to use but leave out details that damage your reasoning.

ok, you are saying that Israel was restored in 1948 and now only waiting for the anti-christ to appear and "stand in the holy place" in Jerusalem. So this is still future. But what you omit is the portion of Daniel 9 that says this anti-christ will set up an abomination on the "wing of the Temple".

There is no temple in Jerusalem. You're putting the cart before the horse.