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Vinnie · 08-06-2004, 11:03 AM

Know of any texts dependent upon this work or who mention its author besides Irenaeus? If so please list them.

Vinnie

Toto · 08-06-2004, 11:47 AM

Paul Tobin writes:

Quote:

The tradition of identifying the author with John the son of Zebedee is very late. It was first stated by Ireneaus around 180 CE who reported that the author of this gospel was John the son of Zebedee. This utterance by Ireneaus was most likely based on his confusion of the two Johns mentioned by Papias:

And whenever anyone came who had been a follower of the presbyters, I inquired into the words of the presbyters, what Andrew or Peter had said, or Philip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any other disciple of the Lord, and what Aristion and the presbyter John, disciples of the Lord, were still saying. [11]

There were thus two Johns referred to above. One is John, one of original circle of disciples, which as can be inferred from the passage, was already dead. The other is the presbyter John who was still alive at the time of Papias writing around AD125. Now we know that Ireneaus, in his work Against Heresies, maintained that Papias was the follower of the apostle John (Against Heresies 5:33:4). We can see from the above passage that Papias gave no hint of knowing the apostle John but that he knew the presbyter John. It could very well be this same presbyter who wrote the Johanine epistles. In the second and third epistles of John, the writer introduces himself as John the Presbyter (or elder). [12]

Furthermore there is no evidence of any tradition attributing the authorship of the gospel to John the apostle before Ireneaus' assertion. Even some of Ireneaus' contemporaries do not share his opinion. The Roman presbyter, Cauis, writing a few years after Ireneaus, attributed the book to the gnostic Cerinthus. We have evidence that this gospel was not universally accepted in Rome during the end of the second or beginning of the third century because the presbyter Hippolytus (c170-c236) had to defend the Johanine authorship. [13] After Ireneaus however the attribution apostolic authorship started to gain ground among the Christians. This probably happened via a circular process: the claims of apostolic authorship strengthen its claims to canonicity while the strengthening of its canonicity further boosted the claims of apostolic authorship.

There is still another reason against the traditional attribution of authorship. We find in John a knowledge of Greek philosophy, mysticism and dogma that simply cannot be realistically expected from an unschooled Galilean fisherman (Acts 4:13). The references to "the Jews" as though they were a foreign race, again points to a Gentile as the author. [14]

. . .

11. Eusebius, The History of the Church: 2:39
12. Davidson & Leaney, Biblical Criticism: p267-268,324
Martin, New Testament Foundations I: p277-278
13. Davidson & Leaney, Biblical Criticism: p268
14. Craveri, The Life of Jesus: p152
Maccoby, Revolution in Judea: p244

Casper · 08-07-2004, 04:41 AM

Quote:

And whenever anyone came who had been a follower of the presbyters, I inquired into the words of the presbyters, what Andrew or Peter had said, or Philip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any other disciple of the Lord, and what Aristion and the presbyter John, disciples of the Lord, were still saying.

I read this two ways; one, as if the second John were separate from the first, and two, as if they are the same, but unlike the rest, Aristion and John are the only two still alive and witnessing.

In and of itself, I cannot make an assumption. But I'll give Tobin the benefit of the doubt.

Vorkosigan · 08-07-2004, 06:38 AM

Vinnie:

Gjohn or a related text was quoted by Tatian in his apology, and also in Theophilus of Antioch. Neither text seems aware of the narrative portion of GJohn, only of its discourse/philosophical portions.

08-06-2004, 11:03 AM	#1
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	2d C. Attestation of GJohn Know of any texts dependent upon this work or who mention its author besides Irenaeus? If so please list them. Vinnie

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08-07-2004, 06:38 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Vinnie: Gjohn or a related text was quoted by Tatian in his apology, and also in Theophilus of Antioch. Neither text seems aware of the narrative portion of GJohn, only of its discourse/philosophical portions.

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