Freethought & Rationalism Archive

alexjohnc3 · 12-09-2005, 10:44 AM

My father presented me with the evidence that there were over 5,000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead. He said that they either all went insane at the same time or Jesus had risen from the dead.

I'm an agnostic atheist, so I wanted to know if there was anything wrong with my father's statement. Thanks in advance!

Alf · 12-09-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexjohnc3

My father presented me with the evidence that there were over 5,000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead. He said that they either all went insane at the same time or Jesus had risen from the dead.

I'm an agnostic atheist, so I wanted to know if there was anything wrong with my father's statement. Thanks in advance!

The "evidence" spoke about 500 I bellieve and you can find it in Paul's letter to the corinthians. The first one if I remember correctly.

Problem is that it isn't 500 people evidencing anything. It is one person - Paul - claiming that 500 people witnessed it. If I told you that 10000 people saw me walk on water today, does that mean I have 10000 witnesses to the event or is it just me - a single person - making the claim?

What if I claimed that 20000 people witnessed a friend of mine do it? Is it 20000 people who are the evidence or is it only me?

Alf

Weltall · 12-09-2005, 10:59 AM

Well, there's a couple things wrong. First, I'd ask where the evidence for this is (actually I know it's taken from the bible, I was just curious if he had discovered a never before seen extra-biblical account of this). If he could point to writings by one or more of these 500 I'd be really impressed. Then there's the fact that he's set up a false dichotomy. The 500 people could have been liars, they could have never existed etc. Since it's most likely that they never existed and Paul just made it up, this isn't very convincing evidence. Oh by the way, welcome to II.

John A. Broussard · 12-09-2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexjohnc3

My father presented me with the evidence that there were over 5,000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead. He said that they either all went insane at the same time or Jesus had risen from the dead.

I'm an agnostic atheist, so I wanted to know if there was anything wrong with my father's statement. Thanks in advance!

Welcome aboard.

Your father sounds like a fascinating person.

You might ask him where the cutoff point is in establishing the authenticity of a miracle.

1 person? 10? 500?

It always help to get matters like that straight beforehand.

Alter · 12-09-2005, 10:59 AM

Even better, it's more like saying "20 years ago, 500 people saw me walk on water," since there's a time gap there as well.

ELECTROGOD · 12-09-2005, 11:09 AM

Since the actual existance of Jesus himself is quite questionable the witnesse's accounts are even more questionable (if not irrelevant) since their very existance is first reliant on the Jesus of the Bible being shown to have lived someplace else other than the Bible itself.

Bobinius · 12-09-2005, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexjohnc3

My father presented me with the evidence that there were over 5,000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead. He said that they either all went insane at the same time or Jesus had risen from the dead.

I'm an agnostic atheist, so I wanted to know if there was anything wrong with my father's statement. Thanks in advance!

Now all your father needs to do is present you the evidence that there were actually 5000 people witnessing Jesus risen from the dead. A fantastic claim is not evidence for another fantastic claim. How do we know 5000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead? Because it is written in the same book where it was written that Jesus rose from the dead?

alexjohnc3 · 12-09-2005, 11:46 AM

Thanks a lot for the responses. ^_^

I'll ask him about that next when I see him later today.

Edit: Oh and I looked it up, Alf was right, it was 500 people and Paul had claimed that in the Bible. Thanks again.

Terrible Heresy · 12-09-2005, 12:33 PM

Also point out that Paul does not appear to be a witness himself. That he got his information from elsewhere. So it's a claim of a claim by someone else.

When your father tries to say this it's still reliable....ask him how the actual number 500 got changed to 5,000 when he repeated it to you....

alexjohnc3 · 12-09-2005, 12:53 PM

Terrible Heresy, do you know who informed Paul, just so I can tell him that? I don't know much about the Bible's texts or the Christian religion in general (educated in Christianity through ~3rd grade, I'm in 8th now) and I suppose that's a weakness for me. However, I do believe I have enough of my own evidence against God's existance to be an agonstic atheist.

12-09-2005, 10:44 AM	#1
alexjohnc3 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: US Posts: 39	Interesting "evidence" for Christianity My father presented me with the evidence that there were over 5,000 people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead. He said that they either all went insane at the same time or Jesus had risen from the dead. I'm an agnostic atheist, so I wanted to know if there was anything wrong with my father's statement. Thanks in advance!

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12-09-2005, 10:59 AM	#3
Weltall Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 3,283	Well, there's a couple things wrong. First, I'd ask where the evidence for this is (actually I know it's taken from the bible, I was just curious if he had discovered a never before seen extra-biblical account of this). If he could point to writings by one or more of these 500 I'd be really impressed. Then there's the fact that he's set up a false dichotomy. The 500 people could have been liars, they could have never existed etc. Since it's most likely that they never existed and Paul just made it up, this isn't very convincing evidence. Oh by the way, welcome to II.

12-09-2005, 10:59 AM	#5
Alter Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Midwest Posts: 2,210	Even better, it's more like saying "20 years ago, 500 people saw me walk on water," since there's a time gap there as well.

12-09-2005, 11:09 AM	#6
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	Since the actual existance of Jesus himself is quite questionable the witnesse's accounts are even more questionable (if not irrelevant) since their very existance is first reliant on the Jesus of the Bible being shown to have lived someplace else other than the Bible itself.

12-09-2005, 11:46 AM	#8
alexjohnc3 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: US Posts: 39	Thanks a lot for the responses. ^_^ I'll ask him about that next when I see him later today. Edit: Oh and I looked it up, Alf was right, it was 500 people and Paul had claimed that in the Bible. Thanks again.

12-09-2005, 12:33 PM	#9
Terrible Heresy Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 57	Also point out that Paul does not appear to be a witness himself. That he got his information from elsewhere. So it's a claim of a claim by someone else. When your father tries to say this it's still reliable....ask him how the actual number 500 got changed to 5,000 when he repeated it to you....

12-09-2005, 12:53 PM	#10
alexjohnc3 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: US Posts: 39	Terrible Heresy, do you know who informed Paul, just so I can tell him that? I don't know much about the Bible's texts or the Christian religion in general (educated in Christianity through ~3rd grade, I'm in 8th now) and I suppose that's a weakness for me. However, I do believe I have enough of my own evidence against God's existance to be an agonstic atheist.

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