mike_decock

Isn't this evidence against the claim that Christianity caused modern science? If Christianity caused this radical departure in ways of thinking, one would expect it to have been a universal phenomenon. Apparently, there was something outside of Christianity which caused a change in the way of thinking within a certain group of Christians while the other group was unaffected.

-Mike...

Jackalope

You just unwitting hit upon the most likely connection between christianity and modern science. It was the belief that god had ordained the (european) christian nations to rule the rest of the earth that drove quite a bit of the exploration, industrialization and practical experimentation that was done in the 16th and 17th centuries. By the 18th century, there's a change that removes God somewhat from the picture, but that idea that europeans were superior and ordained to rule remained.

Jackalope

One can read the Summa Theologica online in translation at New Advent as well. It starts here.

Nomad

Hi Mike

No, it means that only a certain type of Christian, rather than all Christians everywhere, came to think along certain lines, and to employ the methods that lead to the rise of science. That is why I said the theory needs some refinement and tightening, as it would be too broad to assert simply that Christianity made the Age of Science possible. It is certainly one of the points I would expect Stark to address in his book.

Peace,

Nomad

NOGO

Actually the thought did occur to me.
I wanted to ask Nomad or Bede if Christianity is also responsible for the whole sad period of colonialism. The British got opium from India and sold it in China. The Chinese government tried to stop it and the military was brought in to force those damn secularists to accept free trade.

Can we credit this to Christianity too. Or is Christrianity only reponsible for the good things like science and not the bad like burning witches.

Speaking of which
On the subject of witches Bede argued that witches were burnt by secular courts. So the church and Christianity are not responsible. Now if we apply the same reasoning here, people who developed science were not priests so the church and Christianity cannot take credit.

Bede

Originally posted by NOGO

Actually, it did have a large effect on this - both positive and negative. On the debit side, Christianity was imposed on many unwilling people, it gave Europeans a sense of their moral superiority and a lack of respect for other belief systems. On the credit side, it was at the forefront of attacks on slavery and the Dominican/Jesuit attempts to protect natives from exploitation.

Christianity was certainly responsible for witch trials. It was, to coin a phrase, a necessary but not sufficient cause. Other religious systems could have led to witch trials but it was Christianity that did, so perhaps by the logic of some here Christianity wasn't a cause. But I certainly don't think that way. As for the fact that secular courts tried most witches, this is an example of how you have to distinquish between Christianity and the church.

Anyway, NOGO, your post contains not a word of truth about Nomad or I, our views or anything else. Its simply a massive great strawman and well in character. But in reverse you are right. Many atheists blame Christianity for all bad things but refuse to give it credit where its due - abolishing slavery, bringing about science, helping the poor, founding most pre-modern hospitals and resisting tyranny belong on the ledger sheet as clearly as tolerating slavery, sexual repression, supporting unjust regimes and forced conversion. I can see both sides of the equation but sadly most so called freethinkers cannot.

BTW: here's a review of Stark that may be of interest to those who have open minds.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/52.0.html

On slavery, contracycle, I won't expose you to the truth in case it hurts your feelings.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto

Bede - condescension does not become you.

Freethinkers do not need to deny credit to Christianity for its achievements. There have been many good and great things accomplished by people who were fundamentally mistaken about some core belief. The fact that Christianity's achievements are mixed with massive flaws is certainly enough to call into question whether Christians have the Truth, or whether Christianity is the best way.

I was struck by this quote from Stark in the review you linked:

I would be interested in seeing how Stark supports this, if he does. It sounds like cultural hubris.

Goliath

Bede,

I'm still waiting for that proof. Why do I have the feeling that you will never produce it?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Toto

Hi Goliath

We are trying to tone down the excessive combativeness in the forum. Please avoid agressive challenges such as this.

Thank you

Toto
mod BCH

Vorkosigan

Another quote from Stark:

I think it is pretty obvious what we're looking at here -- a very revealing interview with a man whose views are obviously seriously shallow. I guess the search for critical, balanced, and objective scholarship on this topic will have to shine its light elsewhere. In the meantime I shall repair to Eisenstein's The Printing Press as an Agent of Change which is simply awesome.

Vorkosigan