Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-28-2003, 01:09 PM

An important new book is out that I hope Familyman will be keen to read. It is Rodney Stark's "For the Glory of God" and explains much for a popular audience.

His second chapter is on how Christianity gave rise to science:

Quote:

In this chapter, I argue not only that there is no inherent conflict between science and religion, but that Christian theology was essential for the rise of science. (emphasis in the original)....

....A confession is appropriate here. Having begun this chapter, I immersed myself in recent historical studies, only to find that some of my central arguments have already become the conventional wisdom among historians of science. So I have the comfort of learned opinion on my side. I might have skipped the chapter entirely but I am painfully aware that what it contains is unknown outside narrow scholarly circles. In fact, if asked, most well-informed people would express that most of this could not possibly be true - early in my career I shared the view.

I know how he feels. There is nothing worse than having a radical and exciting theory only to find that anyone who knows their stuff already shares it. My thesis is not so controversial within the relavent academy, after all.

He also has a chapter on why monotheism must always be intolerant and how it caused ther witch hunts. Familyman will also be interested to read his analysis of how Christianity, almost uniquely, ended slavery.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

lpetrich · 11-28-2003, 11:40 PM

I have no idea how any flavor of Xtianity could possibly be responsible for the achievements of classical-Greek scientists like Pythagoras, Aristotle, Hipparchus, Ptolemy, Archimedes, Euclid, Hippocrates, etc. Especially since most of them had lived before Jesus Christ had been born.

And note that modern medicine has more in common with the practice of Hippocrates than the practice of Jesus Christ; exorcists have yet to put mainstream doctors out of business.

So "Xtianity" here may really be yet another case of man creating God in his own likeness, in this case, a belief in impersonal natural laws.

Toto · 11-29-2003, 02:00 AM

For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery

Quote:

Stark asserts that, contrary to traditional notions, no single religious reformation can be isolated in any monotheistic religion. Thus, Christianity has experienced not simply the Reformation of Luther but many and various reformations that resulted in a diversity of sectarian movements that practice the worship of the One True God in their own ways. Stark also argues that science could have evolved only out of a monotheistic culture that viewed the world as God's handiwork, and that the witch-hunts of Europe could have taken place only in a culture marred by religious conflict and motivated by the desire to displace heretical religious sects.

Sounds intriguing.

NOGO · 11-30-2003, 01:58 PM

No matter how many people repeat the absurd it will always remain absurd.

joedad · 11-30-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
He also has a chapter on why monotheism must always be intolerant and how it caused ther witch hunts. Familyman will also be interested to read his analysis of how Christianity, almost uniquely, ended slavery.

Bede,

Slavery was a necessary precondition to ending slavery. Or do you disagree?

Is there anything at all in the human experience - in your opinion - that is not christian in origin or cause? Such might make a most interesting conversation.

Adora · 11-30-2003, 05:17 PM

So Christianity influenced the ancient South American civilisations to have some of the most complex mathematical and scientific schools in the ancient world around 3000+ years before Christianity even existed? And Christianity influenced the advanced Egyptian medical schools who even had contraceptive medicines for both sexes dating back to about the XII dynasty in 1850 BCE?

11-30-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adora
So Christianity influenced the ancient South American civilisations to have some of the most complex mathematical and scientific schools in the ancient world around 3000+ years before Christianity even existed? And Christianity influenced the advanced Egyptian medical schools who even had contraceptive medicines for both sexes dating back to about the XII dynasty in 1850 BCE?

Can you document the claim about South America? I find it rather unlikely they had developed calculus or any maths or science comparable to Western Europe's in the sixteenth century. Perhaps you can specify what amazing stuff they knew in 3000BC.

As for contraceptives, every witchdoctor who ever lived had a prefered recipe for this. Given we didn't develop a reliable medicine for contraception until the 1960s I think we can safely assume the ancient Egyptians didn't have an effective one either.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

PS: Joedad, what's your point? Slavery is certainly necessary for it to be abolished. As I have not stated that Christianity abolished it, I'm not going to discuss it with you. Perhaps you can read Stark's book and tell us what it wrong with his argument.

Jabu Khan · 11-30-2003, 06:18 PM

NO .... No he didn't.

Yeah Christianity gave us such wonderful scientific contributions as Papal rather than peer review, The Ptolemiac System, The incubus/sucubus rape defense, and how to determine if a wealthy widow with no hiers is a witch who should be killed leaving all her assets to the church. And lets not forget 1+1+1=1.

NOGO · 11-30-2003, 06:46 PM

Quote:

... how Christianity, almost uniquely, ended slavery.

That, of course, is as absurd as the bit about science.
What got rid of slavery is the fruits of the industrial revolution which permitted enough wealth to go around thus removing the need for slavery.

There is, however, a point to be made here.

Believers attach so much importance to their faith that they tend to think that there is nothing outside of it.
A man is defined by the myth in which he believes in.
He is nothing other than the myth he shares with his community.

The fact that this wrong is easily seen.

Europenas have a culture which has nothing to do with Christianity.
They have languages which have nothing to do with Christianity.
People did not stop being European when they were forced Christianity down their throaths.

Attributing everything to Christianity is like attributing all that is Russia today to Communism. 2000 more years of communism would not have changed anything to the absurdity of the statement.

rlogan · 11-30-2003, 07:17 PM

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

I think the Quakers were one of the first to openly criticize slavery, although the methodists sure put the fire to things later.

Needless to say, southern Churches were not pushing the anti-slavery agenda.

The NT for the most part is silent on slavery although it was common at the time.

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11-28-2003, 11:40 PM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I have no idea how any flavor of Xtianity could possibly be responsible for the achievements of classical-Greek scientists like Pythagoras, Aristotle, Hipparchus, Ptolemy, Archimedes, Euclid, Hippocrates, etc. Especially since most of them had lived before Jesus Christ had been born. And note that modern medicine has more in common with the practice of Hippocrates than the practice of Jesus Christ; exorcists have yet to put mainstream doctors out of business. So "Xtianity" here may really be yet another case of man creating God in his own likeness, in this case, a belief in impersonal natural laws.

11-30-2003, 01:58 PM	#4
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	No matter how many people repeat the absurd it will always remain absurd.

11-30-2003, 05:17 PM	#6
Adora Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,743	So Christianity influenced the ancient South American civilisations to have some of the most complex mathematical and scientific schools in the ancient world around 3000+ years before Christianity even existed? And Christianity influenced the advanced Egyptian medical schools who even had contraceptive medicines for both sexes dating back to about the XII dynasty in 1850 BCE?

11-30-2003, 06:18 PM	#8
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	NO .... No he didn't. Yeah Christianity gave us such wonderful scientific contributions as Papal rather than peer review, The Ptolemiac System, The incubus/sucubus rape defense, and how to determine if a wealthy widow with no hiers is a witch who should be killed leaving all her assets to the church. And lets not forget 1+1+1=1.

11-30-2003, 07:17 PM	#10
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America I think the Quakers were one of the first to openly criticize slavery, although the methodists sure put the fire to things later. Needless to say, southern Churches were not pushing the anti-slavery agenda. The NT for the most part is silent on slavery although it was common at the time.

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