trendkill

I used to believe that the human intellect was of no real use when I was a Christian, and I would like any theist who believes salvation is available to people of any level of intellectual capacity to explain how intelligence could possibly be of any real, significant use. My argument might have gone something like this--

1. Salvation is the only thing of any real importance.
2. Everyone's capacity to reason is fallible to some degree.
3. Salvation is available to people despite their intellectual fallibility.
4. From 2 and 3, I would conclude that intellectual pursuits can never be necessary for salvation.
5. From 1 and 4, I would conclude that intellectual pursuits can never be necessary for anything of any real importance.

So, theists who believe that intelligence is not a requirement for salvation, was I wrong to believe this? If so, why?

Heathen Dawn

I hope this isn’t off-topic, but the way I see it, the intellect has been used through the ages to philosophise the Gods out of existence.

The Evolution of Deity (my article)

dado

since intelligence is demonstrably a positive influence on both practical life - flushing comodes and soft fluffy toilet paper - and spiritual life - you think a moron could have written the poetic texts often referred to as "scripture"? - it follows the only problem with your chain of logic is your very first assumption. making moral choices requires free will. proper exercise of free will requires intellectual activity.

the entire concept of "salvation" is irrelevant to the day to day nature of human existence. theism is not equivalent to believing "it's all about the salvation". in judaism, eg, there simply isn't a concept of salvation because there is nothing to be saved from.

trendkill

Do you consider flushing the toilet an intellectual pursuit? Maybe I wasn't clear enough--when I say "intellectual pursuits", I'm not talking about the level of cognition necessary to get through day-to-day existence, I'm talking about philosophy, theology and such--mental activities that not everyone is capable of doing.

Which is why Judaism is irrelevant to this topic. I stated clearly who the question is addressed to, and it is not people who don't believe in an afterlife. Where are the Christians and other salvation-oriented revealed religionists who claim that intellectual pursuits aren't pointless?

dado

no. but i do consider the work that went into giving me the opportunity to flush one intellectual work. somebody had to design the thing - and the infrastructure to make it useful.

you specifically asked your question of "any theist". if you wish to limit it to certain kinds of theists, you might be more specific in the "instructions".

trendkill

Ah, well, as a theist, I didn't think inventions and technology did anything to assist salvation, and thus I wouldn't have agreed with you that they are truly meaningful developments.

You might try reading my original post again; I did not address just "any theist", but instead was very careful to describe exactly the type of theist that was relevant to the question. Twice, in fact.

wildernesse

I think it depends on what you mean by salvation. Is salvation a one shot wonder? Say the magic words and hey presto automatic salvation from here until eternity? Or is salvation a continuing work of grace? And what's the point? Is it just escape from being a crispy critter or is it "not simply to get to heaven; it is to become filled with the love of God and to have the life of God flow into and out of our daily lives"? UMC Or is it something else entirely?

I'm not expressing myself very well--but it's obvious where my beliefs tend, I guess. I don't believe that praying once upon a time is the end all and be all of salvation--even if salvation is by the grace of God and by faith you accept that grace for your life. What do you do the next day? How do you know what God's will is for your life? Most Christians I know aren't getting instamatic revelations about their everyday choices. They discern God's will or wisdom from using their minds and interpreting/extrapolating from what they think they do have down for certain about God's will. Intellect matters, I think--if you have the ability to understand sin issues more fully, then you are responsible to the level of your understanding and vice versa.

I also think that inventions and technology do have meaningful impacts on salvation-- for evangelicals, printing presses seem to be handy, as do other more advanced means of communicating with each other. Transportation advances are pretty great too.

But then I may not be the type of theist you are addressing either--I'm not sure if I think that intelligence is required for salvation or not. I tend toward not with a heaping dose of mystery for people without abstract thinking capabilities.

trendkill

[theist trendkill]But more intelligence can get in the way of understanding just as easily as less can. Human knowledge is foolishness next to the knowledge of God. How do you think atheists got to where they are? By trusting their intellect, that's how. Best to keep it as simple as possible so as to avoid error.[/theist trendkill]

That's why I emphasized fallibility in the OP.

Good point, and now that I think about it, I did believe these things were useful. IIRC, I thought God specifically inspired their development for just these purposes; they were merely a practical expedient, and one that He probably could have avoided if He had thought it necessary to do so. The intellect was not useful for gaining knowledge; that came only through revelation.

wildernesse

I've had conversations with people who believe this. It's incredibly frustrating. But I don't think that this really addresses the point--not being very intelligent and being more intelligent than most aren't getting in the way of understanding--there are just less/more nuances and considerations of that understanding. I think it might even amount to sin for people who are capable of a highly nuanced and considerate application of religious beliefs to steadfastly remain "simple". Paul's epistles have great calls to spiritual growth and maturity--and there are clearly people described with greater and lesser understandings as well as how those people should act toward each other.

Yes, people and their reasoning are fallible--but I believe that it is more important to try to understand and grow than to settle for pat answers. (Which you don't even know are right.) Plus, I don't think that thinking and searching out answers is completely unaided by God.

I don't think that revelation gives much knowledge--wisdom useful for applying to knowledge, but not really knowledge itself. And knowledge is extremely important--how else are you going to reach out to other people who are different from you, how else are you going to know how to act in an appropriate and practical way to meet other people's needs? It's nice that some people have revealed truth about their salvation--but when faith is put into action, then practical knowledge is pretty helpful.

trendkill

I can't imagine any situation where that knowledge would require "intellectual pursuits" rather than a normal level of common sense. I find your last post fairly non-responsive to the question at hand.