Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jim123 · 12-13-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

I suppose it depends on how you define fiction.

How about from the dictionary:

fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun
literature in the form of prose, esp. short stories and novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

.

steamer · 12-13-2008, 09:20 AM

Christians suppose that existence must have a cause. They then suppose that a god existed to be that cause, but if a god existd then existence already existed as well. The Christian god cannot cause existence if existence (his own) already exists.

I think this is the first trap for many religious thinkers. They cannot understand that the god they imagine cannot be the cause of existence.

I tend to think that existence doesn't require a cause.

Student of Sophia · 12-13-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

I suppose it depends on how you define fiction.

How about from the dictionary:

fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun
literature in the form of prose, esp. short stories and novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

.

In other words, lies. I mean if they are meant to be believed literally, yet we know they aren't literally true, then they must be lies. Right?

Jim123 · 12-13-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim123

How about from the dictionary:

fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun
literature in the form of prose, esp. short stories and novels, that describes imaginary events and people.

.

In other words, lies. I mean if they are meant to be believed literally, yet we know they aren't literally true, then they must be lies. Right?

I have a feeling you are baiting me, but I'll take it.

You have defined "lie" quite well. Intent to deceive makes it a lie.

OTOH, an intent to entertain or instruct (say, by parable or metaphor or intentionally false statements) would make it fiction.

Note the dictionary definition below also gives intent a pass by including "mistaken impression." So, if one doesn't intend to deceive, but deceives as a consequence of ignorance (or mistaken-ness), the deception is still categorized as a lie... deception, by whatever means.

lie 2 |laɪ| |lʌɪ| noun
an intentionally false statement ... used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.

Next?

Student of Sophia · 12-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

In other words, lies. I mean if they are meant to be believed literally, yet we know they aren't literally true, then they must be lies. Right?

I have a feeling you are baiting me, but I'll take it.

You have defined "lie" quite well. Intent to deceive makes it a lie.

OTOH, an intent to entertain or instruct (say, by parable or metaphor or intentionally false statements) would make it fiction.

Note the dictionary definition below also gives intent a pass by including "mistaken impression." So, if one doesn't intend to deceive, but deceives as a consequence of ignorance (or mistaken-ness), the deception is still categorized as a lie... deception, by whatever means.

lie 2 |laɪ| |lʌɪ| noun
an intentionally false statement ... used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.

Next?

So it's a binary, black and white, fact/lie either-or choice when it comes to the Bible in particular and world myth in general. Is that a fair assessment of your position and this thread?

Jim123 · 12-13-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamer

Christians suppose that existence must have a cause. They then suppose that a god existed to be that cause, but if a god existd then existence already existed as well. The Christian god cannot cause existence if existence (his own) already exists.

I think this is the first trap for many religious thinkers. They cannot understand that the god they imagine cannot be the cause of existence.

I tend to think that existence doesn't require a cause.

Plus, if you accept that God always existed, why not accept the universe always existed? If you can accept that, God is useless and unnecessary.

Julio · 12-13-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

We also need a manufacturer for the switch, someone to train the installation engineer, a competent authority to assess the training of the engineer, accreditation for the competent authority...

All in the dark.

Funny!
What about a factory to make plastic from crude oil?!...
And how did the oil arrive at the factory?!!...:huh:

Jim123 · 12-13-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim123

I have a feeling you are baiting me, but I'll take it.

You have defined "lie" quite well. Intent to deceive makes it a lie.

OTOH, an intent to entertain or instruct (say, by parable or metaphor or intentionally false statements) would make it fiction.

Note the dictionary definition below also gives intent a pass by including "mistaken impression." So, if one doesn't intend to deceive, but deceives as a consequence of ignorance (or mistaken-ness), the deception is still categorized as a lie... deception, by whatever means.

lie 2 |laɪ| |lʌɪ| noun
an intentionally false statement ... used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.

Next?

So it's a binary, black and white, fact/lie either-or choice when it comes to the Bible in particular and world myth in general. Is that a fair assessment of your position and this thread?

Do you understand the meaning of the word "fact?"

Something is fact, or it isn't... either/or.

Just in case:

fact |fakt| noun
a thing that is indisputably the case

joedad · 12-13-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Genesis 1:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [IN TOTAL DARKNESS].
And the earth was without form, and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep. [DARKNESS WAS EVERYWHERE]
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [IN THE DARK]
And God [LIVING IN TOTAL DARKNESS] said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good. [END OF DARKNESS].
Therefore: verse one is a contradiction in respect to verse three!
The Creator[s] (Elohim) could not create the heavens WITHOUT light.

The problem is more fundamental than that because “in the beginning” there was already a universe, just not as we know it.

Maybe it should start “in the universe…”

Student of Sophia · 12-13-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

So it's a binary, black and white, fact/lie either-or choice when it comes to the Bible in particular and world myth in general. Is that a fair assessment of your position and this thread?

Do you understand the meaning of the word "fact?"

Something is fact, or it isn't... either/or.

Just in case:

fact |fakt| noun
a thing that is indisputably the case

OK, fine. Whatever. The point it, you see the situation in binary terms when it comes to the Bible in particular and world myth in general. Is that a fair assessment of your position and this thread?

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12-13-2008, 09:20 AM	#12
steamer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: CA Posts: 7,653	Christians suppose that existence must have a cause. They then suppose that a god existed to be that cause, but if a god existd then existence already existed as well. The Christian god cannot cause existence if existence (his own) already exists. I think this is the first trap for many religious thinkers. They cannot understand that the god they imagine cannot be the cause of existence. I tend to think that existence doesn't require a cause.

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