Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Davka · 08-22-2010, 11:44 AM

Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

10/1/2008

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

Full Article

Toto · 08-22-2010, 03:14 PM

There is more here.

If you look at the inscription, it is not Christ, but Chrest (XPHST - with part of the eta ('H') missing.) There is no mention of Jesus.

From this link:

Quote:

Different hypotheses of reading

For Pr. Bert Smith of Oxford University, it might be a dedication or a present made by a certain Chrestos belonging to an association (maybe religious) called Ogoistais. In this sense, Pr. Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions in the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of inscriptions believes that it is necessary to connect “ogostai” to known Greek denominations of religious associations such as Hermaistai, Athenaistai, Isiastai which gathered worshippers of the god Hermes or the goddess Athena and Isis. “Ogo,” according to this hypothesis, would be a divine form of expressing the god Osogo or Ogoa of whom Strabon and Pausanias talk with regard to a divinity worshipped in Milas, in Caria.

Davka · 08-22-2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is more here.

If you look at the inscription, it is not Christ, but Chrest (XPHST - with part of the eta ('H') missing.) There is no mention of Jesus.

From this link:

Quote:

Different hypotheses of reading

For Pr. Bert Smith of Oxford University, it might be a dedication or a present made by a certain Chrestos belonging to an association (maybe religious) called Ogoistais. In this sense, Pr. Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions in the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of inscriptions believes that it is necessary to connect “ogostai” to known Greek denominations of religious associations such as Hermaistai, Athenaistai, Isiastai which gathered worshippers of the god Hermes or the goddess Athena and Isis. “Ogo,” according to this hypothesis, would be a divine form of expressing the god Osogo or Ogoa of whom Strabon and Pausanias talk with regard to a divinity worshipped in Milas, in Caria.

Maybe. It could be a malformed eta, or a malformed pi, or an iota & tau that ran together. I don't know enough about Greek writing in antiquity to make a sound judgement. But I wouldn't take one Greek scholar's word over another's simply because it fits my preconceptions.

Later in the article you linked:

Quote:

Chrestos/Christos and Christ?

If Chrestos is a widely accepted name in Greek onomastics, chrestos or christos is the Greek word that translates the Hebrew mishnah, “messia”, “Christ” of the would refer to Jesus-Christ to legitimise his magic abilities. Transformation of water into wine, multiplication of loafs, miraculous curing, resurrection… The story of Christ must have been veritable manna for the magician who could find (mythical) precedents to his questions and concerns. To resort to “Christ” to support a magical practice does not mean belonging to the Christian religion. A pagan might appeal to the Christian God, new to them, simply because of his strangeness and the power attributed to him. It should be remembered that in Alexandria paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religiousness came into magical practices that seduced both the humble layers of the population and the most well-off classes. It was in Alexandria where new religious constructions were made to propose solutions to the problem of man, of God’s world. Cults of Isis, mysteries of Mithra, early Christianity bear witness to this.

Toto · 08-22-2010, 03:31 PM

This was hot news in 2008, but I can't find where anyone has resolved the issues.

April DeConick: Magical Cup has nothing to do with Christ

Quote:

CHRESTOU was a well-known title for one of the Sethian Gnostic archons, ATHOTH. It means "EXCELLENT ONE". It is found in several Sethian texts, including the Gospel of Judas. I do not yet know what OGOISTAIS is, but I am going to work on it. But it doesn't mean "magician." This magical bowl is possibly a GNOSTIC magical bowl with an invocation to ATHOTH on it. So don't believe the hype for minute. This bowl had absolutely nothing to do with CHRIST or with CHRIST as a magician. BUT it is totally fascinating if this object is actually SETHIAN!

Another possibility

Quote:

We would really like to see the inscription of OGOISTAIS. Would it be possible that this is a misreading for ὁ γεύστης, "the one who tasted"? In this case, χρηστοῦ could be an allusion to wine "excellent" but I do not know what to do with διά. It does not seem to exist an attestation of a familiar expression διὰ χρηστοῦ or δι 'ἀχρήστου.

. . .

Jack Kilmon wrote:
I think the goblet refers to wine and states "enchantment through excellence." I am puzzled by the claim that the inscription was done before firing since the brown slip appears flaked by the stylus suggesting it was dried. The hand could also be 2nd to 3rd century, to me, so I would like to know more about the stratigraphic context that places it on the ground of the 1st century harbor. In my opinion, if the provenance is correct, reference to XRISTOS is highly unlikely for the first half of the first century. I think XRHSTOS (excellent, good) is correct but the eta/iota shift is in O GO(H)ISTAIS. Alexandrian Koine is noted for provincialisms and archaisms. Come to think of it, that wouldn't be a bad slogan for a modern wine producer.

Jesus Bowl another crock

Unlikely

Quote:

Is it "Christ" or "Good"? - The archaeologists may have mistaken one Greek word for another in their interpretation. A glance at the photograph of the cup reveals a letter between the rho ("P") and the sigma ("C"). The letter, though poorly formed, seems unmistakably the letter eta ("H"). If this identification is correct, then the lexical form of the Greek word inscribed is not christos, but chrestos, meaning "kind, loving, good, merciful."

The prepositional phrase, then, probably indicates that the bowl was a gift, given "through kindness" from some benefactor. It seems obvious that chrestou is much more likely than christou for the engraved word. Rather than referring to the power of Christ, the word chrestou might be a reference to the person who gave the cup as a gift-as we might write on a gift "from Donald with best wishes." This explanation seems as plausible as its alternative is unlikely.

Davka · 08-22-2010, 06:10 PM

Meh. I was sort of hoping there might be some new information, but it looks like all we have is lots of speculation.

I personally love the idea of a magical Jesus water-to-wine cup.

ziffel · 08-22-2010, 06:42 PM

[STAFFWARN]Thread moved from Abrahamic to Biblical Criticism and History, where it appears to fit better.[/STAFFWARN]

coconino · 08-22-2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Only after the Resurrection did the title (Christos) gradually pass into a proper name, and the expression Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus became only one designation. But at this stage the Greeks and Romans understood little or nothing about the import of the word anointed; to them it did not convey any sacred conception. Hence they substituted Chrestus, or "excellent", for Christus or "anointed", and Chrestians instead of "Christians." There may be an allusion to this practice in 1 Peter 2:3; hoti chrestos ho kyrios, which is rendered "that the Lord is sweet." Justin Martyr (First Apology 4), Clement of Alexandria (Stromata II.4.18), Tertullian (To the Nations II), and Lactantius (Divine Institutes IV.7), as well as St. Jerome (In Gal., V, 22), are acquainted with the pagan substitution of Chrestes for Christus, and are careful to explain the new term in a favourable sense. The pagans made little or no effort to learn anything accurate about Christ and the Christians; Suetonius, for instance, ascribes the expulsion of the Jews from Rome under Claudius to the constant instigation of sedition by Chrestus, whom he conceives as acting in Rome the part of a leader of insurgents.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm

Also:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...20christos.htm
http://www.babylon.com/definition/CHRESTOS/English
http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/christ.htm

Littlejohn · 08-23-2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto
If you look at the inscription, it is not Christ, but Chrest (XPHST - with part of the eta ('H') missing.) There is no mention of Jesus.

From this link:

Quote:

Different hypotheses of reading

For Pr. Bert Smith of Oxford University, it might be a dedication or a present made by a certain Chrestos belonging to an association (maybe religious) called Ogoistais. In this sense, Pr. Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions in the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of inscriptions believes that it is necessary to connect “ogostai” to known Greek denominations of religious associations such as Hermaistai, Athenaistai, Isiastai which gathered worshippers of the god Hermes or the goddess Athena and Isis. “Ogo,” according to this hypothesis, would be a divine form of expressing the god Osogo or Ogoa of whom Strabon and Pausanias talk with regard to a divinity worshipped in Milas, in Caria.
.

.

Regardless by the fact whether or not the bowl had to do with the character Jesus of Nazareth, should be noted that the latter was known by the Romans of his time with the attribute 'CHRESTOS' (see Suetonius) and not as 'Christos'. The apologetic fathers of the third century in forward, complained that the pagans corrupted the 'christians' attribute with CHRESTIANS! ... It appears all too clear that this term arises from CHRESTOS and not by Christos!...

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

mountainman · 08-23-2010, 04:50 AM

DCHindley · 08-24-2010, 09:08 PM

At this site the whole inscription can be seen.

It looks to me like the Greek words DIACRHSTOV OGOISTIAS or maybe the reverse OGOISTIAS DIACRHSTOV

DIA ("dia" = through or by-means-of with words in Gentitive/Ablative case, because-of with words in accusative case)

CRHSTON ("ChrEston" = adjective χρηστός, accusative masculine singular -or- vocative neuter singular -or- accusative neuter singular -or- nominative neuter singular = virtuous, good, useful; docile, pleasant, kind. The online articles misspell this, leaving out the H/eta, and they also treat the letter that looks like an "N" as a Roman style "U", making this CRHSTOU = "ChrEstou" which is either the substantive χρήστης, genitive masculine singular = lender, or adjective χρηστός, genitive masculine/neuter singular = virtuous, good, useful; docile, pleasant, kind as above)

or alternatively

DIACRHSTON (possibly "thorougly good/useful")

O (I don't actually see it in the photo, but the masculine singular "ho" = "the" in the nominative case)

GOISTIAS ("goistais" = no regular word, but may be based on GOHS = "goEs" howling-street-magician, but with no forms approximating this spelling).

alternatively:

OGOISTAIS (not a known word, but could be the technical term for a religious association dedicated to the god Osogo or Ogoa, whom Strabo and Pausanias name as a divinity worshipped in Milas, in Caria)

or alternatively

OGOIS (not a known word, but see above regarding the god OGOA)

TAIS ("tais" = article ταῖς, dative feminine plural of the definite article "the")

which of course makes no sense.

I'd propose it is a drinking cup of the "Thoroughly useful association of Ogoa worshippers". Wine, anyone?

How about a cheap giveaway gift cup "Compliments of your creditor, the association of Ogoas worshippers." My mortgage lender likes to send me calendars to ensure I don't forget I owe them $170,000.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is more here.

If you look at the inscription, it is not Christ, but Chrest (XPHST - with part of the eta ('H') missing.) There is no mention of Jesus.

From this link:

Quote:

Different hypotheses of reading

For Pr. Bert Smith of Oxford University, it might be a dedication or a present made by a certain Chrestos belonging to an association (maybe religious) called Ogoistais. In this sense, Pr. Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions in the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of inscriptions believes that it is necessary to connect “ogostai” to known Greek denominations of religious associations such as Hermaistai, Athenaistai, Isiastai which gathered worshippers of the god Hermes or the goddess Athena and Isis. “Ogo,” according to this hypothesis, would be a divine form of expressing the god Osogo or Ogoa of whom Strabon and Pausanias talk with regard to a divinity worshipped in Milas, in Caria.

08-22-2010, 11:44 AM	#1
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Christ the Magician? Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician' 10/1/2008 A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ. If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world. The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ." "It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said. Full Article

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08-22-2010, 06:10 PM	#5
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Meh. I was sort of hoping there might be some new information, but it looks like all we have is lots of speculation. I personally love the idea of a magical Jesus water-to-wine cup.

08-22-2010, 06:42 PM	#6
ziffel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Florida east coast, near Daytona Posts: 4,969	[STAFFWARN]Thread moved from Abrahamic to Biblical Criticism and History, where it appears to fit better.[/STAFFWARN]

08-23-2010, 04:50 AM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192

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