Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ed · 12-19-2004, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Ed: Christianity provides 10 basic oughts, ie the ten commandments. Please name just ONE ought from evolution (for the umpteenth time).

jtb: And why is it that we OUGHT to obey the ten commandments?

Evolution explains why we OUGHT to avoid killing each other, stealing from each other, and so forth. This has been explained to you (umpteen times).

I have already given the reasons why we ought to obey the creator. Evolution does not tell us why we ought to do these things, it only tells us what may happen if we do these things. Again you have yet to provide one ought from evolution.

Jack the Bodiless · 12-20-2004, 01:41 AM

Yes, you've had one one of your periodic bouts of amnesia: an "Eddian reset".

I guess it's time to repost my list of reminders (from post #516) before the situation deteriorates further.

Quote:

1. According to the Bible (excluding the Book of Ed), God initially hardened Pharaoh's heart.
2. The Bible (excluding the Book of Ed) contains no prohibition on the human sacrifice of captives.
3. The Bible (excluding the Book of Ed) contains no prohibition on non-adulterous rape.
4. Chritianity contains no moral imperatives without secular equivalents: no more "oughts" than metaphysical naturalism provides.
5. The Bible (excluding the Book of Ed) specifically says that the genocide of the Amalekites was retaliation for the actions of their ancestors four centuries previously.
6. There is no evidence that Christianity is "truer" than either Islam or Hinduism.

We have already established that you haven't given any more "reasons to obey the creator".

I can see three reasons:

1. FEAR. Fear of God, or fear of the police.

2. EMPATHY. "Love of God" or "love of humanity", or the evolved emotional bond that social creatures such as ourselves have for each other.

3. SELF-INTEREST. Helping others makes them more likely to help you in return.

Evolution explains all these, and you have provided no others.

Wads4 · 12-20-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

No, polytheists believe in totally separate divine beings and essences. Ie Zeus and Poseiden are two different beings and essences.

I have done deep meditation and not experienced any oneness. And so have many other people. But if it is true that we are in reality one, then it should be experienced at least sometimes even when we are not in meditation. Also there are other things that point to it not being true, if we are all one with god then we should not be so concerned about justice because everything is actually being done just by one being, ie the all encompassing god. Also there would not be much concern about right and wrong since we are all one being there is no right and wrong.

I think the phrase "all is One" is typical Guru-gobbledegook. If I had swum rivers, climbed mountains and endured all sorts of privations in order to scale the heights where the Guru resided,-and then be told "All is One--now go away"- I should consider myself very short-changed.

Wads4 · 12-20-2004, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

I have already given the reasons why we ought to obey the creator. Evolution does not tell us why we ought to do these things, it only tells us what may happen if we do these things. Again you have yet to provide one ought from evolution.

To try and derive an "ought" from an "is", is to commit the Naturalist Fallacy. I am a firm Naturalist and Evolutionist. Evolution does not tell you what you ought to do (it is not a person),-it just weeds out by natural selection, that behaviour which is not conducive to survival. What you are left with can be interpreted in retrospect, as the "best "way to behave in order to survive. If you are a God-believer (not I), you can re-interpret this anthropomorphically as commands from the big Anthropos in the sky.

Ed · 12-21-2004, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Originally Posted by Ed
It doesn't explicitly say so but it does say that some teachings require more fasting and prayer and meditation. Also, from nature we know that He has given us intelligent minds and from what we know about God he would not give us such a thing without desiring us to use it.

lp: Like the way that Mr. G. wants us to use our sex organs?

If by "Mr. G" you mean God then yes.

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lp: And that is contrary to what seems like a message of the Garden of Eden story: that pursuit of knowledge is dangerous.

No, the message of the GoE is that the pursuit of knowledge autonomously is dangerous, ie without God's guidance.

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Ed: It wasn't that the writers had trouble as I stated above about the Psalmist, but that many of their readers may have had trouble understanding.

lp: Then that ought to be clearly pointed out, as a simplification for the benefit of those who would have difficulty understanding the full story.

Simplification is not always part of God's plan as stated above.

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Ed: When we were originally created in his image we did do things for the right motivation but later we rebelled. But we still have aspects of his image in us.

lp: What ingenious theological footsie -- trying to have it both ways. Traditional Xian doctrine resembles bipolar disorder:

Mania - We look just like Mr. G., creator and ruler of the Universe!
Depression - We are terrible original sinners, who can never do anything right on our own initiative.

No, you are confused about Christian teaching. We do not look like God because he is a non-physical being. It is the non-physical characteristics which we share with Him. Also, once you become a believer and have the spirit of God in you, you CAN do things with the right motivation.

Quote:

Ed: Well there is only one basic view of salvation and all churches that accept the authority of the scriptures agree on that basic truth.

lp: By defining other views as not true Xianity. Can anyone say "No True Scotsman"?

See my earlier post above where I explain how the NTS fallacy does not apply.

Quote:

Ed: Christianity provides 10 basic oughts, ie the ten commandments.

lp: I thought that it was two basic oughts - love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

That is Jesus' summary of the 10 commandments.

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lp: Furthermore, one can follow the 10C's to the letter and be an absolutely disgusting person.

True, that is why we need Jesus' explanation of the deeper meanings of them.

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lp: And why the 10C's fetish? Why not the rest of the Law of Moses, like Exodus 20:26? Which states that one must not climb up upon an altar, because one would expose oneself to it if one did.

Because only the ten commandments and Jesus' explanation and expansion of them, apply to Christians. The ceremonial laws only applied to the old hebrew theocracy.

Ed · 12-23-2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

jtb: You have "demonstrated" no such thing, as I pointed out yesterday.

4. Chritianity contains no moral imperatives without secular equivalents: no more "oughts" than metaphysical naturalism provides.

Ed: No, metaphysical naturalism and evolution only tell us how things ARE, NOT how they OUGHT to be. For example, using your example, if you kill someone then you are likely to be thrown in jail or executed and not be able to pass on your genes or etc. But this does not tell you that you OUGHT not kill someone. It just tells you the way things are.

jtb: You're backsliding again, we have already dealt with this.

No, I am afraid you have not other than not providing any oughts.

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jtb: You OUGHT to obey God because... ???

Read earlier in this thread I provide the reasons.

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Ed: But the scholars I am referring to are non-religious scholars, according the atheists they are more objective and accurate.

jtb: Who are these "non-religious scholars" who agree that Islam was invented, but DON'T agree that Christianity was invented?

Non sequitor, we were talking about Islam not Christianity.

[Quote]
jtb: 6. There is no evidence that Christianity is "truer" than either Islam or Hinduism.

Quote:

Ed: In addition to the evidence presented above, the Islamic god, allah, is inadequate to produce a universe such as ours. It is a diversity within a unity, while allah is a pure unified being.

jtb: It is quite obvious that an omnipotent pure unified being is entirely adequate to produce the Universe. This is apologetic babble.

While it is possible that he would be adequate, we know from experience that artists and people who create things almost always have some aspect of who they are incorporated into their creation, like a "fingerprint". Since the universe is a diversity within a unity this is evidence that Christian Triune God created the universe rather than a purely unified being.

Quote:

jtb: No, the Hindu reality is that personalities are connected rather than separate.

The leaves on a tree are just parts of the same plant, they are not separate plants. But that doesn't mean that the leaves don't exist.

Ed: No, they are more than connected, they are ONE.

jtb: No, Hindus do NOT believe that individual human personalities don't exist at all. They cannot believe this because it is obviously false. You are STILL trying to use the "millions of Hindus are dumber than a box of rocks" argument.

See earlier where I dealt with this.

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jtb: A Hindu would argue that it DOESN'T "go against all human experience": it is merely not obvious. The Christian notion that the whole world is controlled by an omnibenevolent deity "goes against all human experience" much more seriously than anything in Hinduism does (because of all the suffering in the world).

Ed: No, if the universe is not as it originally was created and humans were created with a free will to choose evil then suffering would be expected.

jtb: An omnibenevolent deity would at least ensure that no human ever has to experience suffering that isn't a direct consequence of his/her own actions.

How do you know this? This would be unlikely if he created a universe with beings that have a truly free will.

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jtb: In what sense do NO Hindus live in a manner consistent with their beliefs? Where's your evidence for this claim?

Are you arguing that Christians lead perfect lives?

Ed: Because they live as if they believe in justice and if as if they fear being killed by 18 wheelers. But if all is one then these things are just illusions and they should not really be concerned about them.

jtb: As I've already pointed out, this applies to Christians too. But Hindus (who DO believe they have individual "souls") have reason to fear death if they haven't done enough to ensure a higher position in the next reincarnation. They believe they will be judged.

You are right many hindus do believe that, but this is again evidence of the contradictory nature of hinduism providing more evidence that hinduism is probably man made and not true.

Ed · 12-27-2004, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Originally Posted by Ed
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come after he ascended to teach his disciples more truths.

lp: Where?

John 14:26.

Quote:

Ed: That is because His primary mission was to the jews and he didnt want to get sidetracked.

lp: Where did he say so?

Matthew 15:24.

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lp: And this implies that Jesus Christ was less-than-omnipotent.

He was not omnipotent while on earth.

Quote:

(Talmudic rabbis as great debaters...)

Ed: Evidence?

lp: You can always try reading some of the Talmud. But even if you don't, every discussion I've ever seen of it indicates that it's full of debates between various Rabbis.

Yes, but they never encountered someone that taught with the authority of Christ. Remember in one case just his spoken word caused some people to fall backwards.

Ed · 12-30-2004, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

jtb: That wasn't "justice".

"Justice" refers to the concept of individuals being rewarded or punished according to their own actions (and not the actions of others): a concept largely alien to the Bible.

Ed: Yes, that is in the scriptures but there is also the concept of "representative justice". And that is the case with Jesus dying for our sins.

jtb: That woudn't be justice.

Why not? It is done in western societies all the time. For example, entire companies have paid fines for crimes that individuals in their company have committed.

Quote:

Ed: No, polytheists believe in totally separate divine beings and essences. Ie Zeus and Poseiden are two different beings and essences.

jtb: Two different beings, yes. As for "essences": most people can't be bothered to make a distinction between a "being" and an "essence", but some Greek philosophers considered the gods to have a shared essence.

Ed: Yes, but most ancient Greeks believed that each god was a totally separate being with a separate essence.

jtb: BTW, a lot of Hindus similarly don't bother to make this distinction, and worship individual Hindu deities as separate entities. There's a lot of variation of belief within Hinduism.

Ed: Yes, but the deeper thinking hindu scholars agree with my summary of their belief.

jtb: You are merely confirming the similarities between Greek polytheism and Hinduism: many consider the deities as separate, but "deep thinkers" consider them as aspects of the same shared essence.

Most Greek scholars believe that the ancient greeks believed each god was a separate being with separate essences.

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jtb: The Christian Trinity is exactly the same, except that Christians had a tradition of setting fire to those who say that the elements have separate personalities (polytheistic heretics such as yourself), or those who take the view that God is truly one (Trinity-deniers).

No, read the Athanasian Creed. This is the orthodox and historic Christian position for almost all Christian denominations. It plainly teaches that there are three persons with one essence.

Quote:

Ed: But none of those people live as if it is true in the difficult cases such as justice and 18 wheelers...

...Because how you are judged after death is partially based on how just you are prior to death and how much you fight injustices.

jtb: Please demonstrate that you have SOME understanding of the Hindu "karma" system. We WILL (allegedly) be "judged": our status in the next incarnation depends on our actions in this one.

Why did you simply ignore me when I pointed this out earlier?

This is one of the inconsistencies in hinduism. See my earlier post.

Wads4 · 12-31-2004, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brighid

I am sorry I was unable to respond, but I have had to deal with major server issues ...

Anyway, because of this I am seriously backlogged I won't be able to respond as I would like, but if I have time I will do my best to provide you with chapter and verse. If you are interested in reading for yourself about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart please do a search at : http://www.blueletterbible.com. Type "harden heart" and read the story of Passover. You will indeed fine NUMEROUS references that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart so he would not let the Jews go, so that he could continue to visit the deadly plagues upon Egypt and eventually kill all the first born.

I will address the other points as I have time.

My point is that God has done ALL the things I have listed above. It is amazing, as a Christian, you do not know your Bible better. My point is also to illustrate that God's character is reflected in his actions and if his actions are not moral, than he is not, IN FACT, moral and it would be irresponsible to derive ones moral foundation from a deity that takes action (thereby demonstrating his character) that run counter to all that is claimed of him, and all that decent and humane.

I would say that "hardening" the Pharaoh's heart SO HE WOULD disobey God's commands through Moses and Aaron is pretty damn dispicable, and from that hardening of his heart (be sure to not only read the verses with that phrase but also the pre and proceeding verses and chapters to get the full impact) kill innocent people ... well in this day and age that individual would be tried for crimes against humanity.

Brighid

All of the above is of course academic, as there is no God, and therefore the events described were not caused by any such entity. Presumably the Israelites regarded it as literal truth. We however, can just think of it as a metaphor to explain a myth.

Wads4 · 12-31-2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Pharoah initiated the process by hardening his own heart ten times during the first five plagues. God has said that his mercy does not last forever, we are only given a limited time to rebel against him, then your end comes. If you continue to hate God and rebel against him you will enter a spiral of which you can never come out of and that is what happened to pharoah. God caused that spiral to eventually become permanent. He had many chances to turn back with the warnings of the plagues.

Your description of the biblical events is so distorted they are hardly recognizable. How do you determine what is decent and humane?

See above about the hardening. As an aside, why are "crimes" against humanity "bad"?

Wouldn't you "harden your heart" if your country was occupied by a large overbreeding horde of foreigners who were intent on taking over your land and imposing their religion and customs on you? If the activities of modern J-Christian fanatics are anything to go by, this is precisely what was happening at that time. The OT confirms it by recording the fulminations of Israelite priests against the Egyptians religion which as "guests" in Egypt, they had no right to do.

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