Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Is not Jerusalem the capital of Israel which has always been? Yes, you say?

No, actually.

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Then indeed Israel is restored. It does not matter how much territory has been restored to them that determines if they are restored or not.

That's funny; arnoldo says that the prophecy of Israel's restoration hasn't been fulfilled yet, because the Jews don't have all the land promised to them.

Yet you say it has been fulfilled.

Maybe you two ought to coordinate your responses first, instead of contradicting each other?

Man you are so blind (and funny) A restored Israel as a nation, is a fulfillment of prophecy, but complete fulfillment happens when the Messiah returns, and the time of the Gentiles are up. "When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem (fulfilled)....I will also gather all nations, there I will enter into judgement against them (not fulfilled). The fact is Israel is restored as predicted, and the whole world is uniting against them (Study the U.N. vote tallies and resolutions against Israel, the world is indeed mustering against Israel in this dispute over Jerusalem this was foretold thousands of years ago and it is 100% accurate it amazes me that critics have shut their eyes to this amazing prophecy) You can attack us all you want but that will not change the truth....What God has foretold.....will come to pass (according to the text ofcourse

) :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 11:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Here is a prophecy that has already been fulfilled

But Jews wandered among the nations" before Christ.
As well as after Christ.

Seems like Jews are just prone to wandering, no matter what, and no matter when. How is that a prophecy?

Apparently not, since

1. most Jews still live outside of Israel.

2. Immigration into Israel has been declining:

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Immigration to Israel in 2007 down 6%, at its lowest since 1989

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

The number of new immigrants arriving in Israel in 2007 was 19,700 - a decline of 6 percent over last year, according to the Absorption Ministry end-of-the-year statistics released on Sunday.

This is the lowest number of immigrants since 1989, after the wave of immigration following the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Forecasts for 2008 do not show an increase in newcomers.

What does that prove, Jews haved lived in other countries since the first dispersion even during the days of Christ and restored Israel. And many Jews have dual citizenship while living outside Israel. This arguement does not prove anything because whether all the Jews are living in Israel or not...Israel is still a NATION that has been restored. And immigration to Israel still continues.....:wave:

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 11:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Only to the blind my friend. But anyways answer me this: Before the Babylonian dispersion, did Israel have the territory that was once held during the time of David often refered to as 'Greater Israel'? No. But yet Israel was considered a nation by the biblical God. After Israel was restored after the first dispersion it did not have the territory of David nor Joshua. But yet it was considered a restored nation, and Jesus refered to this diminished kingdom as "ISRAEL." My point is that whether having little or all the land of Israel it was considered a NATION. Israel today does not have all the land promised but it is still a NATION. It is a RESTORED NATION having as its capital JERUSALEM. That is my point, my friend...is it clear now? And scripture make it clear that when the time of the Gentiles are up Israel will recieve all the land promised....for eternity. :wave:

You're suffering from the confusion caused by the King James Version. Briefly, the meaning of 'nation' has changed since 1611.

In the KJV text, the word "nation" does not mean "political entity in a geographic area, defined by borders, a flag and an embassy." It means "distinctive population".

By that definition, Israel was a nation before, during and after the so-called Babylonian Exile. The modern country of Israel has nothing to do with the "nation of Israel", since most members of that nation don't live inside the country of the same name.

Nice try but that is nonesense. The STATE of Israel is a JEWISH STATE run and controled by JEWS ALL Jews have the right to RETURN to THEIR LAND. Israel the restored Kingdom of THE JEWS....is that better? :wave:

spin · 01-18-2008, 11:19 PM

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

What does that prove, Jews haved lived in other countries since the first dispersion even during the days of Christ and restored Israel. And many Jews have dual citizenship while living outside Israel. This arguement does not prove anything because whether all the Jews are living in Israel or not...Israel is still a NATION that has been restored. And immigration to Israel still continues.....:wave:

In your sty of contentment, you still haven't read about Jews against Zionism. You just have the will to believe. There is no logic that can overcome rampant belief. It's what's behind suicide bombers. No reason.

spin

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 11:23 PM

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Originally Posted by makerowner

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

God choose the Jews to write his Word which has survived for thousands of years, all of the prophets have been Jews, and Yeshua himself was a Jew. The nation of Israel existed thousands of years ago and now exists. Do you know of any other ancient country that ceased to exist and then came back?

It didn't cease to exist. There have been millions of people identifying as Jews throughout Europe, North Africa, and Asia for the past 2000 or so years.

Uh Uh, that ain't what he asked you. Do you know of any ancient nation that ceased to exist then restored? And by nation you know exactly what he means.

spin · 01-18-2008, 11:25 PM

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Nice try but that is nonesense.

At least that's something you should know about, being such a great purveyor.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The STATE of Israel is a JEWISH STATE...

What one calls a "Jewish state" doesn't change it from being originally a Zionist state, repudiated by the Jews against Zionism.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

...run and controled by JEWS ALL Jews have the right to RETURN to THEIR LAND. Israel the restored Kingdom of THE JEWS....is that better? :wave:

Israel is a political entity created after WWII not by the hand of god but by people who were willing to make agreements with Nazi Germany, who were willing to use terrorism and start wars to disinherit the population that had lived there for centuries. If that's the restored Kingdom that you so desperately need to believe in then it should be obvious to you that it is bereft of anything godly. Oh, but then I guess, your need to believe is stronger.

spin

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 11:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes, Israel has been dispersed to the nations various times in it's history and miraculously they have returned to their homeland every time. The first dispersion is when the Jews when down into Egypt for 400 years, next the Assyrians conquered them & then the Babylonians. Every time they returned to their homeland. The Last Dispersion is after the Romans scattered the Jews into all the nations. Miraculously, the Jews have returned.

That is completely false. Returned to what? Certainly not to what Genesis 17:8 promised. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. Obviously, the prophecy failed on both counts. Today, Jews do not nearly occupy ALL of the ancient land of Canaan, and their current occupation of PARTS of Palestine are most certainly not part of an EVERLASTING covenant. How does the word "everlasting" apply to Genesis 17:3?

If God said that he would give Frank one dollar as part of an everlasting covenant, and Frank lost the dollar, and God gave Frank twenty-five cents, would you call that fulfilled prophecy?

Even if God is able to predict the future, so what? There is not a necessary correlation between power and good character.

If the Bible predicted that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject it, but why? If you really believed that God is able to predict the future, you would believe the Bible if it said that God will send everyone to hell, which of course you wouldn't, which proves that it is not the QUALITY of evidence that interests you, but what the evidence PROMISES. Your emotional perceived self-interest has caused you to abandon logic and reason.

What you seem to forget is that Frank once had the dollar but God took back 75 cents, and told Frank that he would get it back when he amend his ways and doings. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 11:50 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

When Rome destroyed Israel they were forbidden to restore this nation, this is what contitutes captivity of the Jews by not allowing them to reclaim state-hood in their land. they may be able to move freely in other countires but if they could not reclaim their ancient home land and nation they are in fact in captivity. :wave:

You sure know how to con yourself with ridiculous word games, sugarhitman. Captivity doesn't mean captivity in this case according to you, but exclusion from going somewhere, kind of the opposite of captivity. Do you usually manipulate the truth so easily or just with yourself? Surely you know that this silliness is not for the benefit of forum members. The only person who seems likely to benefit in some way is you.

spin

To forbid a nation from having its own state and self-determination while treating them harshly within the confines of your state constitutes CAPTIVITY my friend. This has been the attitude of almost every country the Jews lived in. From country to country they were persecuted, many Jews believed they could not live in peace unless they had their own state, and for a long time they were prevented from establishing their State. This is captivity not exclusion. Spin you are an avanced Spin doctor....but you cant spin this. :wave:

spin · 01-19-2008, 01:18 AM

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

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Originally Posted by spin

You sure know how to con yourself with ridiculous word games, sugarhitman. Captivity doesn't mean captivity in this case according to you, but exclusion from going somewhere, kind of the opposite of captivity. Do you usually manipulate the truth so easily or just with yourself? Surely you know that this silliness is not for the benefit of forum members. The only person who seems likely to benefit in some way is you.

To forbid a nation from having its own state and self-determination while treating them harshly within the confines of your state constitutes CAPTIVITY my friend. This has been the attitude of almost every country the Jews lived in. From country to country they were persecuted, many Jews believed they could not live in peace unless they had their own state, and for a long time they were prevented from establishing their State. This is captivity not exclusion.

It doesn't matter how you tart it up, you are merely redefining terms because you can't cope with the real meaning of "captivity".

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Spin you are an avanced Spin doctor....but you cant spin this. :wave:

This coming from s'hitman means what exactly?

spin

arnoldo · 01-19-2008, 06:23 AM

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Originally Posted by makerowner

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

How about in the last days there will be mockers and scoffers just as in the days of Noah?

That assumes you know when the last days are. ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matt. 24:36)

There are many scriptures to indicate we are living in the general times before the last days. Most of them give the sign of Israel (a fig tree) replanted into its homeland after exile.

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