Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Panpsychist · 12-17-2007, 12:47 AM

A recurring argument in Jewish circles in favor of Judaism is that claimed miracles - especially blatant, obvious miracles - in other religions are always private, witnessed only by the select few disciples. For example, Jesus heals people in private houses or so on. In contrast, Maamad Har Sinai, where the Commandments were given to Moses in the desert, involved great miracles that were seen by ALL the people, the entire nation. It is argued that it would have been impossible to make this up, to invent such a tale, since that would go against the traditions handed down by everyone's father, grandfather, and so on.

My question is - are there similar tales told in other mythologies? Any truly spectacular and extremely public miracles? Preferably ones witnessed by the whole of the people.

MortalWombat · 12-17-2007, 08:53 AM

Suetonius writes this of the Emperor Vespasian:

Quote:

Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success.

gstafleu · 12-17-2007, 09:06 AM

In the Iliad the gods fight besides the humans, in a visible way, I think. In the epic of Gilgamesh Ishtar brings down the Bull of Heaven, which is seen by everybody in the city of Uruk:

Quote:

When it [the bull] reached Uruk It climbed down to the Euphrates...
At the snort of the Bull of Heaven a huge pit opened up,
and 100 Young Men of Uruk fell in.
At his second snort a huge pit opened up,
and 200 Young Men of Uruk fell in.

When Inanna brought the "Me's" (powers, principles of civilization) from the god of wisdom, Enki, to her city of Uruk, everybody could see it (Inanna transported the Me's by boat, the Boat of Heaven):

Quote:

When Inanna arrived at the White Quay
Where the Boat of Heaven was moored.
She unloaded all hundred Mes,
And the people rejoiced.

(This is a bit of an interpretation connecting various pieces. But one original text has "When she had …… the Boat of Heaven to the Gate of Joy at Unug Kulaba, it passed magnificently along the street," pretty much confirming the essence: everybody saw it).

So I think the "Jewish circles" you mention (whatever they are) may be a bit too optimistic in their idea of uniqueness.
Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 12-17-2007, 09:58 AM

Moving on the Christian mythology, we have of course the feeding of the 4000/5000, where Jesus takes a fish and a couple of loaves and feeds the whole crowd. Hardly a private affair. And even in the more private arena, Jesus is in a house at one point, and the house is so packed that some people house a paralyzed man onto the roof, dig a hole into the roof and then lower the guy in front of Jesus! Not a whole people maybe, but a respectable crowd nevertheless.

Add to this that the whole argument is rather silly to start with. Imagine the following scenario. The handing down of the law by God to Moses didn't happen. Someone then makes up this story. That person can then triumphantly claim that his story is in good shape, because there is no tradition to contradict it. Well, duh, there is no tradition, period. When the inventors keep repeating the story, it will at some point turn into tradition, and voila, we have a new tradition without any countering tradition!

Gerard Stafleu

12-17-2007, 12:47 AM	#1
Panpsychist Regular Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Israel Posts: 489	Public Miracles in Mythology A recurring argument in Jewish circles in favor of Judaism is that claimed miracles - especially blatant, obvious miracles - in other religions are always private, witnessed only by the select few disciples. For example, Jesus heals people in private houses or so on. In contrast, Maamad Har Sinai, where the Commandments were given to Moses in the desert, involved great miracles that were seen by ALL the people, the entire nation. It is argued that it would have been impossible to make this up, to invent such a tale, since that would go against the traditions handed down by everyone's father, grandfather, and so on. My question is - are there similar tales told in other mythologies? Any truly spectacular and extremely public miracles? Preferably ones witnessed by the whole of the people.

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12-17-2007, 09:58 AM	#4
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Moving on the Christian mythology, we have of course the feeding of the 4000/5000, where Jesus takes a fish and a couple of loaves and feeds the whole crowd. Hardly a private affair. And even in the more private arena, Jesus is in a house at one point, and the house is so packed that some people house a paralyzed man onto the roof, dig a hole into the roof and then lower the guy in front of Jesus! Not a whole people maybe, but a respectable crowd nevertheless. Add to this that the whole argument is rather silly to start with. Imagine the following scenario. The handing down of the law by God to Moses didn't happen. Someone then makes up this story. That person can then triumphantly claim that his story is in good shape, because there is no tradition to contradict it. Well, duh, there is no tradition, period. When the inventors keep repeating the story, it will at some point turn into tradition, and voila, we have a new tradition without any countering tradition! Gerard Stafleu

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