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Old 12-13-2007, 12:50 PM   #11
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Another element overlooked in dealing with matter of "freewill" is the abilty of spirits, evil or good, to take possession of a person, as described in the Bible.
These supernatural entities can render the freewill of a person to be completely useless, and this possession can occur at birth or at childhood, based on the Bible, and remain with such a person until death unless exorcised. See Mark9.17-29.

Once there are supernatural beings, as described in the Bible, then "freewill" cannot be determined.
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:36 PM   #12
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The author of 2 Peter clearly understood that we can act against God's will, and thus are free.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance

Paul concurs, though he undestands that God is transcendant and "knows" the decision each person will make (but being beyond time and space God isn't limited to our understanding of causality and knowledge). Hence:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 - and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
I challenge anyone to harmonize all of these passages. We are clearly dealing with writers with different points of view.
I think Paul attempts to. He understand that God knows everything and thus from our perspective what happens appears to be "predestined." That's because we can't know something for certain without it being causally necessary that it happen.

But Paul understands God as a transcendant being beyond time and space and causality as we know it.

Thus he can talk about predestination and free will, and does. That's because, like a hologram, it depends from what perspective you are viewing human action. From our pespective, we are always free. From the perspective of how we would see us if we were God and knew all things, our actions would appear "predestined" based on our understanding of causality.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Jesus W. Vader View Post
I take these as evidence that the Bible was not written with a straight face-such bald faced contradictions must have been contrived in order to fuck with people's head and drag them deeper into the cult.
Or, we could follow the simpler route and simply accept that at least one of the Bible authors was writing literature rather than religion.
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