Emil

Hi IMDB :wave:

I remember reading a Free Will Defense rebuttal, where the author cited some passage(s) in the bible where god forces some people to think something, or in some way violates free will. But I can't seem to find it. Any help?

Also, I am curious if the bible actually supports free will defense or if it is purely made up by theologians without scripture inspiration/support?

Dlx2

The obvious example is where Yahweh hardens the heart of the Pharaoh of Egypt in order to justify sending the 10 plagues and thus make the Exodus into a particularly epic event.

Jesus W. Vader

Yes, there are time too numerous to begin to cite where God forces someone to do something naughty and then punishes that person-starting with the Pharaoh in Exodus. Then, in the New Testament there is predestination-try Romans 9. I take these as evidence that the Bible was not written with a straight face-such bald faced contradictions must have been contrived in order to fuck with people's head and drag them deeper into the cult. For more on that try The Mind of the Bible Believer by Edmund D. Cohen.

trendkill

Funny how the pharaoh is the only one we ever hear about. Any other specific examples?

Emil

Thanks for the answers. Could I get you to cite the exact passages? I'd like to know more examples of god disrespecting free will.

Also, is there any indication that god likes free will, at all?

Toto

Exodus 4:21

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.


Isaiah 63:17

Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
Return for the sake of your servants,
the tribes that are your inheritance.

Romans 9:18

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

I don't think that the Bible, taken as a whole, is at all consistent on the question of free will. The earliest writers tended to see YHWH as in control of everything, so that if someone did something bad or stupid, it must have been because the supernatural god who controls everything willed it.

Later writers, especially those trying to convince people to do something, are more likely to speak of people hardening their own hearts, e.g.

Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,
as you did that day at Massah in the desert,

Mageth

Jesus said "Not my will, but thine."

If God gives us free will, the Bible seems to indicate that it's only so we can use our free will to choose not follow our free will but to instead follow God's will.

IOW, God arguably gives us free will, but if so he really doesn't want us to follow it (beyond choosing to not follow it).

Tigers!

An example of free will in the OT occurs in Joshua Chpt 24

14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

and
23 "Now then," said Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel."

24 And the people said to Joshua, "We will serve the LORD our God and obey him."

Dogfish

But isn't that Joshua talking? At least one of the opposite examples came straight from The Big Guy.

Toto

I challenge anyone to harmonize all of these passages. We are clearly dealing with writers with different points of view.