Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-28-2012, 09:15 PM

Does anyone know if anyone has investigated the possibility of the word, "Nazareth" possibly having some kind of origin with "Genessaret?" One variant spelling is "Genesareth." Is it theoretically possible that is was a generic reference to somebody from the lake of Genesserat (Sea of Galilee) if not from the town of that name (which was very near Capernaum, the putative site where Jesus began his ministry).

Just an idle curiosity on my part. Has anyone ever seen or done an investigation/analysis of the possibility? Maybe I'm totally out to lunch. I expect there's some obvious reason why that can't be it, but I'm asking just in case there isn't.

maryhelena · 02-28-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Does anyone know if anyone has investigated the possibility of the word, "Nazareth" possibly having some kind of origin with "Genessaret?" One variant spelling is "Genesareth." Is it theoretically possible that is was a generic reference to somebody from the lake of Genesserat (Sea of Galilee) if not from the town of that name (which was very near Capernaum, the putative site where Jesus began his ministry).

Just an idle curiosity on my part. Has anyone ever seen or done an investigation/analysis of the possibility? Maybe I'm totally out to lunch. I expect there's some obvious reason why that can't be it, but I'm asking just in case there isn't.

An old post of mine that might be of interest - I'm out to bridge so will check back later....

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...at#post6286548

copied below for convenience.
===================================

I’m getting rather interested in Capernaum...

Wikipedia Capernnaum

Quote:

Archaeological evidence demonstrates that the town came into existence in the second century BC, in the Hasmonean period. The site had no defensive wall and extended along the shore of the nearby lake (from east to west).

No mention of what exactly is the archaeological evidence. Do you know if there is some evidence that actually says that this site is the Capernaum of the gospel story?

I know Josephus has some story re falling off his horse and was taken to Capernaum.

Life: 72

Quote:

..... 72. As soon as I had gotten intelligence of this, I sent two thousand armed men, and a captain over them, whose name was Jeremiah, who raised a bank a furlong off Julias, near to the river Jordan, and did no more than skirmish with the enemy;.........And I had performed great things that day, if a certain fate had not been my hinderance; for the horse on which I rode, and upon whose back I fought, fell into a quagmire, and threw me on the ground, and I was bruised on my wrist, and carried into a village named Cepharnome, or Capernaum. When my soldiers heard of this, they were afraid I had been worse hurt than I was; and so they did not go on with their pursuit any further, but returned in very great concern for me. I therefore sent for the physicians, and while I was under their hands, I continued feverish that day; and as the physicians directed, I was that night removed to Taricheee.

The issue I have with this is the date - around 99 ce - and that earlier, around 75 ce, Josephus seems to be telling a more interesting story re Capernaum...

Josephus War ch.3 published around 75 ce.

Quote:

7. Now this lake of Gennesareth is so called from the country adjoining to it. Its breadth is forty furlongs, and its length one hundred and forty; its waters are sweet, and very agreeable for drinking, for they are finer than the thick waters of other fens; the lake is also pure, and on every side ends directly at the shores, and at the sand; it is also of a temperate nature when you draw it up, and of a more gentle nature than river or fountain water, and yet always cooler than one could expect in so diffuse a place as this is. Now when this water is kept in the open air, it is as cold as that snow which the country people are accustomed to make by night in summer. There are several kinds of fish in it, different both to the taste and the sight from those elsewhere. It is divided into two parts by the river Jordan. Now Panium is thought to be the fountain of Jordan, but in reality it is carried thither after an occult manner from the place called Phiala: this place lies as you go up to Trachonitis, and is a hundred and twenty furlongs from Cesarea, and is not far out of the road on the right hand; and indeed it hath its name of Phiala [vial or bowl] very justly, from the roundness of its circumference, as being round like a wheel; its water continues always up to its edges, without either sinking or running over. And as this origin of Jordan was formerly not known, it was discovered so to be when Philip was tetrarch of Trachonitis; for he had chaff thrown into Phiala, and it was found at Paninto, where the ancients thought the fountain-head of the river was, whither it had been therefore carried [by the waters]. As for Panium itself, its natural beauty had been improved by the royal liberality of Agrippa, and adorned at his expenses. Now Jordan's visible stream arises from this cavern, and divides the marshes and fens of the lake Semechonitis; when it hath run another hundred and twenty furlongs, it first passes by the city ]Julias, and then passes through the middle of the lake Gennesareth; after which it runs a long way over a desert, and then makes its exit into the lake Asphaltitis.

8. The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth; its nature is wonderful as well as its beauty; its soil is so fruitful that all sorts of trees can grow upon it, and the inhabitants accordingly plant all sorts of trees there; for the temper of the air is so well mixed, that it agrees very well with those several sorts, particularly walnuts, which require the coldest air, flourish there in vast plenty; there are palm trees also, which grow best in hot air; fig trees also and olives grow near them, which yet require an air that is more temperate. One may call this place the ambition of nature, where it forces those plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together; it is a happy contention of the seasons, as if every one of them laid claim to this country; for it not only nourishes different sorts of autumnal fruit beyond men's expectation, but preserves them a great while; it supplies men with the principal fruits, with grapes and figs continually, during ten months of the year (7) and the rest of the fruits as they become ripe together through the whole year; for besides the good temperature of the air, "it is also watered from a most fertile fountain.The people of the country call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish as well as that lake does which is near to Alexandria. The length of this country extends itself along the banks of this lake that bears the same name for thirty furlongs, and is in breadth twenty, And this is the nature of that place.

With such talk of water and fountains and wonderful beauty in nature, soil that is fruitful and palm trees and fig and olive trees - this place is the ambition of nature - plants that are natural enemies agree together, a happy contention of the seasons, supplies fruit beyond men’s expectation...Are we not seeing here a vision of Camelot, of Arcadia?

Taking Josephus at his word, that he was not unfamiliar with the prophets etc and had visions and could interpreted them - is he not here dealing with an abstract ideal rather than the geography of the region? And if he was familiar with the geography of the region why the tall story re Philip: “Philip was tetrarch of Trachonitis; for he had chaff thrown into Phiala, and it was found at Paninto”.

Quote:

“The Jordan’s course from Banias, through the swamps of the Huleh (Semechonitis),into the Sea of Galilee (Gennesarat) and finally the Dead Sea (Asphaltitis), is of course accurately traced. But it is geologically impossible for water to run from the Phiale (nowcalled Birkat Ram) to Banias. Nevertheless, Josephus says that Philip, whom he calls ‘tetrarch of Trachonitis’, himself made this gravity-defying discovery by means of a scientific experiment.The king ‘had chaff thrown into the pool of Phiale and found it cast up at Panion’. Since this result is physically impossible, given the geological relationship of the two sites, we can only speculate that Philip’s assistants in this experiment, eager to please, manipulated the evidence to match the king’s theory".

CAESAREA PHILIPPI: BANIAS, THE LOST CITY OF PAN (or via: amazon.co.uk) John Francis Wilson

So, we have Josephus giving an idealist utopian landscape that is watered from a fertile fountain that the people call Capernaum - - and he adds to this story an incident regarding Philip that is plainly not in accord with the region’s geography.

This is the Josephus of around 75 ce - a Josephus with a keen sense of idealism - and then we have the later Josephus, writing around 99 ce, who remembers that years ago he fell of his horse and that the name of the place he got taken to was Capernaum - though he quickly moved on to somewhere else...

Perhaps the archaeological evidence does establish that Capernaum existed around the time of the gospel storyline - however, from the early writing of Josephus - it seems evident that the name ‘Capernaum’ might well have had a more philosophical connotation as well...’Capernaum’ as the source of the water of life....

Anyway, whatever, bottom line is that the gospel storyline is quick to get Jesus out of Nazareth and on the road to Capernaum...why Capernaum is the question...

(my formating)

maryhelena · 02-29-2012, 06:15 AM

Whether or not there is any technical connection between the two words, “Nazareth” and “Genessaret”, I’m of no help.....

However, on a more philosophical level, perhaps there is a connection. By all accounts the name of “Genessaret, or it’s other spellings, has the connotation of “a garden of riches”, or “the Paradise of Galilee”. The Josephan quote from my earlier post, has described the location in idealist philosophical terms. “the ambition of nature”, the place where “plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together”. In other words; utopia. An arcadia of ‘natural’ wonder.

And the gospel storyline? Healing of the sick - by simply touching the edge of the JC cloak. Mark 6:56. The same healing in Matthew 14:34-35. Then we have the miraculous catch of fish in Luke 5:1-11. Miracles happen around or in Genessaret.

And Nazareth? Well, is that not the biggest miracle of all - the virgin, immaculate, conception. Mythology at it’s grandest!

So, perhaps, Nazareth has been used, by the gospel writers, as a sort of spin off from the ‘natural’ wonders associated with Genessaret - to the supernatural wonder associated with Nazareth. Two peas in the same philosophical basket. Supernatural wonders, wonders outside the normal physical realm (intellectually evolution, new insights etc) symbolized by “Nazareth”. And the earth bound wonders, the physical healing and feeding, symbolically associated with Genessaret.

Just ideas....

====================

Gennesaret

Quote:

Coordinates: Gennesaret ("a garden of riches") was a town alloted to the tribe of Naphtali, called "Kinnereth" (Joshua 19:35), sometimes in the plural form "Kinneroth" (Joshua 11:2). In later times the name was gradually changed to Genezareth, Genezar and Gennesaret (Luke 5:1). No trace of the Gennesaret city remains.

This city stood on the northwestern shore of the lake to which it gave its name: Lake of Gennesaret). The name is the Grecized form of "Chinnereth." The equivalent names are the Sea of Galilee or Lake Tiberias.

The name is also used for the "Plain of Gennesaret". For beauty and fertility it is called “the Paradise of Galilee.” Its modern name is el-Ghuweir.

Doug Shaver · 02-29-2012, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Does anyone know if anyone has investigated the possibility of the word, "Nazareth" possibly having some kind of origin with "Genessaret?"

I do not know about Genessaret in particular. But, having hung around this forum for over six years, and having listened to just about every episode of Robert Price's Bible Geek, I'm quite sure there is not a single name of any place or person in the New Testament that has not been investigated to a fare-thee-well.

Chili · 02-29-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Whether or not there is any technical connection between the two words, “Nazareth” and “Genessaret”, I’m of no help.....

However, on a more philosophical level, perhaps there is a connection. By all accounts the name of “Genessaret, or it’s other spellings, has the connotation of “a garden of riches”, or “the Paradise of Galilee”. The Josephan quote from my earlier post, has described the location in idealist philosophical terms. “the ambition of nature”, the place where “plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together”. In other words; utopia. An arcadia of ‘natural’ wonder.

And the gospel storyline? Healing of the sick - by simply touching the edge of the JC cloak. Mark 6:56. The same healing in Matthew 14:34-35. Then we have the miraculous catch of fish in Luke 5:1-11. Miracles happen around or in Genessaret.
And Nazareth? Well, is that not the biggest miracle of all - the virgin, immaculate, conception. Mythology at it’s grandest!

So, perhaps, Nazareth has been used, by the gospel writers, as a sort of spin off from the ‘natural’ wonders associated with Genessaret - to the supernatural wonder associated with Nazareth. Two peas in the same philosophical basket. Supernatural wonders, wonders outside the normal physical realm (intellectually evolution, new insights etc) symbolized by “Nazareth”. And the earth bound wonders, the physical healing and feeding, symbolically associated with Genessaret.

Just ideas....

====================

Gennesaret

Quote:

Coordinates: Gennesaret ("a garden of riches") was a town alloted to the tribe of Naphtali, called "Kinnereth" (Joshua 19:35), sometimes in the plural form "Kinneroth" (Joshua 11:2). In later times the name was gradually changed to Genezareth, Genezar and Gennesaret (Luke 5:1). No trace of the Gennesaret city remains.

This city stood on the northwestern shore of the lake to which it gave its name: Lake of Gennesaret). The name is the Grecized form of "Chinnereth." The equivalent names are the Sea of Galilee or Lake Tiberias.

The name is also used for the "Plain of Gennesaret". For beauty and fertility it is called “the Paradise of Galilee.” Its modern name is el-Ghuweir.

Just beautful, as if dancing through the tulips that you see, and off to bridge you go.

And paradise should be part of Galilee for those select to see 'emerging' in harmony, while for many it is chaos on a barren plain. Galilee is about transition to validate Nazareth along it's shore where the mermaid is waiting to take us down and show us what we are all aboout.

02-28-2012, 09:15 PM	#1
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Nazareth/Gennesarat? Does anyone know if anyone has investigated the possibility of the word, "Nazareth" possibly having some kind of origin with "Genessaret?" One variant spelling is "Genesareth." Is it theoretically possible that is was a generic reference to somebody from the lake of Genesserat (Sea of Galilee) if not from the town of that name (which was very near Capernaum, the putative site where Jesus began his ministry). Just an idle curiosity on my part. Has anyone ever seen or done an investigation/analysis of the possibility? Maybe I'm totally out to lunch. I expect there's some obvious reason why that can't be it, but I'm asking just in case there isn't.

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