Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-13-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Fixed the link.

I don't know what there is to discuss. Christianity arose in a slave-based society and accepted slavery, the same way it now accepts modern capitalism, including usury, "wage slavery," modern corporations, etc, not to mention divorce, rock music, women preachers, and other aspects of modern society. Christianity's flexibility has been the key to its survival.

The Blogger quoted at the beginning - Jewish - thinks it is a conspiracy - not a cock up.

That Xianity was deliberately invented by very senior people in the Roman Empire as a method of social control - a weapon of war - against one quarter of the Roman population - the slaves.

I think this argument is actually very powerful and makes a lot of sense.

It does require throwing out a huge amount of propagandist garbage - that the pharisees were conservative and Jesus radical - rubbish - it was the other way round,

- that Judaism, xianity and Islam are similar religions - rubbish - arguably Judaism has always been far superior in terms of ethics.

Think about this in terms of effects on the planet - what Empires and armies and wars has Judaism fought compared with xianity and Islam.

What is the balance sheet for each religion in terms of people harmed and killed and helped - of their own religion and others?

The other part of the propagandist garbage is that xianity was only copying its mileu.

But that forgets rule one of the Art of War - don't even let your enemy know you have conquered him!

This fits so well with what I posted in a differnt thread, that it seems quite appropriate to repeat it here.

On the subject of torture in Matthew 18:23-35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It seems that the composer of that particular parable could have came up with a much better example of a king dispensing real justice, rather than a tyrant resorting to barbaric torture, for instance instead of;

"In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "

"in anger his master ordered that his debt be reinstated in full, and that the debt of him that was indebted unto this unworthy servant be dismissed ever more."

Then the other servants would all hear, and serve that King out of respect for his great wisdom, and his justice and equity, and out of sincere love and loyalty rather than through the imposition of tyranny and terror.

But of course there is no denying that the writer gave to us what he chose to give us, a king whose idea of dispensing justice was (is) barbaric, cruel, and unjust.

Actually what he gave us was not even as merciful as what the Law of Moses originally provided for, which was a regularly scheduled release from indebtedness, where everyone was granted a "fresh start" every seven years.

The pattern for this particular parable "king" seems to have been the creation of a foreigner who was either unlearned in, or in contempt of, or willfully attempting to undermine The Laws of Israel. (Forget The Law, forget, forget, forget,.... we have a "New" testament, forget, forget, forget,...... seeee...it is passed away,.... forget, forget,... ahhhhh! now that's better, much better. :devil1: heh heh heh)

As such it seems to dovetail just a little bit too well with all of those "Render unto Caesar" and "be in subjection to the authorities" types of sayings.
Bearing the earmarks of being the handiwork of a foreign power that would use religious credulity, coupled with the tactics of propaganda, and threats of terror, to manipulate a people.

And please spare us.....those "that's not the point of the story....blah blah blahs", The ending of that parable, supposedly written under the inspiration of the holy spook, if it is "inspired", is just as certain as the "forgive debts" part.

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

ATTACK BY STRATAGEM

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best
thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact;
to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is
better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to
balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent
the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in
order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Therefore, when by God's help you reach our most reverend brother, Bishop Augustine, we wish you to inform him that we have been giving careful thought to the affairs of the English, and have come to the following conclusion. The temples of the idols among that people should on no account be destroyed. The idols are to be destroyed, but the temples themselves are to be sprinkled with holy water, altars are to be set up in them, and relics deposited. For if these temples are well built, they must be purified from the worship of demons and dedicated to the service of the true God. In this way, we hope that the people will continue to gather at their accustomed meeting places, and there be led to know and adore the true God. Since they have a custom of sacrificing oxen to demons, let some other great feast be instituted, such as a day of Dedication or a Festival of the holy martyrs whose relics are enshrined there. Let them then continue to construct shelters of boughs for themselves around the churches that were once temples, and let them celebrate their solemnity with devout feasting. They are no longer to sacrifice beasts to the devil, but they may kill them for food to the praise of God, and give thanks to the Giver of all gifts for the plenty they enjoy. If the people are allowed some worldly pleasures in this way, they will more readily come to desire the things of the spirit. For it is certainly impossible to eradicate all errors from obstinate minds at one stroke

Whoever wishes to climb a mountain, goes up gradually step by step, and not in one leap. Of your kindness, you are to inform our brother Augustine of this policy, so that he may consider how he may best implement it on the spot. God keep you safe, my very dear son.

http://www.pluscardenabbey.org/oblat...ember-2004.asp

mountainman · 02-14-2008, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

That is what the Romans gave them: a drug called Christianity, which enabled the slaves to better accept their lot in life.

:devil1:

And also, there is the army,
which marches better
to the One True Song.

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2008, 02:54 AM

In an identical fashion to breeding animals for their most useful characteristics, and improving plants, and strengthening the potency of drugs, it looks to me as if a religion was deliberately cultivated and bred, with very potent effects in creating a unified hierarchical state with compliant army and slaves. A Persian Empire for the west.

Of course, nothing ever breeds true, the mongrels and mutants being labelled in this case heretics, and the focus on theology leading to useless soldiers!

Grafting it onto Judaism was a particularly brilliant move, giving it a feel of an ancient root stock, and then attempting to eradicate the original in the Jewish wars.

Xianity is a direct invention of the Romans, with the move to the empire from the Republic, of creating an eternal emperor - the Persians had had that idea for 500 years and it makes sense against the pesky Greek democratic priesthood of all believer ways. Paganism really died at the Rubicon.

neilgodfrey · 02-14-2008, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Xianity is a direct invention of the Romans, . . . .

How then to explain the Roman state persecution of Xianity?

mountainman · 02-14-2008, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Xianity is a direct invention of the Romans, . . . .

How then to explain the Roman state persecution of Xianity?

Fictional Constantinian literary propaganda playing off the
recent (and real historical) persecution of the followers of
Mani, which Constantine - as a young man and hostage of
the eastern courts - may have had to participate
in under orders from Diocletian c.292 CE.

"Roman state persecution of Xianity?" = Eusebius

The new NATION was "just now" VICTORIOUS!!!.
Three cheers for the Boss!
Hip Hip Hooray!
Hip Hip Hooray!
Hip Hip Hooray!

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

mountainman · 02-14-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Paganism really died at the Rubicon.

Pure Greek paganism may have died at the Rubicon,
but graeco-roman paganism was about to flourish.

It died again at Aegae 324 CE when Constantine flattened the
ancient and well revered temple of Asclepius there, and
had the head priest publically executed, as a prelude to
a pattern of similar facts, well before Nicaea.

After Nicaea, Constantine was still executing pagan priests,
such as Sopater in Constantiniple, and burning the writings
of the Greek pagan academics, such as Porphyry and the
ascetic pagan priest Arius of Alexandria, to whom Bullneck
wrote a very nasty letter.

If paganism really died at the Rubicon, who was Emperor
Julian? Paganism was alive and well in the empire until
Constantine codified his own top-down emperor cult.
After that, see Vlasis Rassias' "Demolish Them!".

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2008, 05:07 AM

It was a good line at the time!

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Xianity is a direct invention of the Romans, . . . .

How then to explain the Roman state persecution of Xianity?

Wasn't that much - if it happened - compared with:

Quote:

6,600 of Spartacus's followers were crucified along the via Appia (or the Appian Way) from Brundisium to Rome. Crassus never gave orders for the bodies to be taken down, thus travelers were forced to see the bodies for years, perhaps decades, after the final battle.

Around 5,000 slaves, however, escaped the capture. They fled north and were later destroyed by Pompey, who was coming back from Roman Iberia. This enabled him also to claim credit for ending this war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus

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02-14-2008, 02:54 AM	#35
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	In an identical fashion to breeding animals for their most useful characteristics, and improving plants, and strengthening the potency of drugs, it looks to me as if a religion was deliberately cultivated and bred, with very potent effects in creating a unified hierarchical state with compliant army and slaves. A Persian Empire for the west. Of course, nothing ever breeds true, the mongrels and mutants being labelled in this case heretics, and the focus on theology leading to useless soldiers! Grafting it onto Judaism was a particularly brilliant move, giving it a feel of an ancient root stock, and then attempting to eradicate the original in the Jewish wars. Xianity is a direct invention of the Romans, with the move to the empire from the Republic, of creating an eternal emperor - the Persians had had that idea for 500 years and it makes sense against the pesky Greek democratic priesthood of all believer ways. Paganism really died at the Rubicon.

02-14-2008, 05:07 AM	#39
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It was a good line at the time!

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