Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cesc · 04-07-2008, 07:48 PM

Because they're both evolved almost directly from the Mesopotamian pantheon of Anu-Enlil-Enki. At least thats the conclusion I've made so far and Im very curious as to what the opinions are about this. I didnt seem to be able to find anything about this on the site or anywhere else for that matter.

Anu the father = the Most High Jehova/Elohim preciding over his divine council, Lord of Hosts etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu
Uranus and El/Elohim (the El from Canaan, top of the pantheon, "the father of the gods" so-called)

Enlil (later Bel) the firstborn son = the angry powerful Jehova/Elohim who floods the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil
Later becomes Bel then Marduk who becomes Ba'al Hadad and Zeus, the sons of El and Cronos respectively.

Enki (later Ea) the other son = the helpful, happy and magical Jehova/Elohim who helps Moses with magic and escape and warns of the flood and perhaps often the fertility Jehova/Elohim ("God Almighty" Gen 28:3, 35:11, 49:25).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ea_%28Babylonian_god%29
The wiki page speaks for itself.

Id love to hear your opinions on this rarely discussed topic.

I believe the name Jehova comes from Jah (YH) which comes from Ea (Enki)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ea_%28Babylonian_god%29

Quote:

In 1964, a team of Italian archaeologists under the direction of Paolo Matthiae of the University of Rome La Sapienza performed a series of excavations of material from the third-millennium BCE city of Ebla. Much of the written material found in these digs was later translated by Dr. Giovanni Pettinato.[15] Among other conclusions, he found a tendency among the inhabitants of Ebla to replace the name of El, king of the gods of the Canaanite Pantheon (found in names such as Mikael), with Ia (two syllables as in Mikiah).

Making Jehova the same god as "the god of Abraham", El Shaddai (Amurru? see below).

And I think maybe the Canaanite El (Elohim), as the "father of the gods", was in part identified with the characteristics of the ancient Ptah of Memphis, Egypt (before or after the Ea/Jah influence):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28god%29

Quote:

The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title dū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title dū gitti is also found in SerābitṪ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of Ēl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to Ēl so early and so consistently.

This could correspond to the early Chronos (not Cronus) aswell as the later "father of time" aspect of El in his Canaanite Saturn (Cronus) aspect.
Also with the golden calf theme, probably the Apis Bull of Memphis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28god%29

Quote:

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god").

Is "Amurru" El Shaddai, the god of Abraham?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amurru

Quote:

This god Amurru/Martu is sometimes described as a 'shepherd', as a son of the sky-god Anu. He is sometimes called bêlu šadī or bêl šadê, 'lord of the mountain'; dúr-hur-sag-gá sikil-a-ke, 'He who dwells on the pure mountain'; and kur-za-gan ti-[la], 'who inhabits the shining mountain'. In Cappadocian Zinčirli inscriptions he is called ì-li a-bi-a, 'the god of my father'.

Accordingly, it has been suggested by L. R. Bailey (1968) and Jean Ouelette (1969), that this Bêl Ūadê might be the same as the Biblical ’Ēl Ūaddāi who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the "Priestly source" of narrative

A son of Anu (like Enlil/Enki) who has a mountain (like Enlil/Enki/Jehova/Elohim) and is called "the god of my father" or "the god of our father" like El Shaddai. Whose consort is called Ashratum equivalent of the consort of El, Asherah.

With whom he had "70 sons":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

Quote:

The goddess Asherah, whose worship Jeremiah so vehemently opposed, was worshipped in ancient Israel and Judah as the consort of Yahweh ...

Athirat is the consort of the god El; there is one reference to the 70 sons [whom El summons to his divine council] of Athirat, presumably the same as the 70 sons of El.

And presumably the same as "the sons of God" from the Bible. Aswell as the same inspiration for 70 sons of Ahabs house (2 Kings 10), Gideon and his 70 children (Judges 9:2) or Moses with the 12 tribes and 70 elders. Just like "the firstborn son of God" himself Jacob-Israel with the 12 sons and 70 children (or 75) in the end (Gen 46:27, Ex 1:5, Deut 10:22).

Of El's children, Yamm and Mot is Poseidon and Hades and his son Ba'al Hadad is of course Zeus. The Jews were defenitely combatting the old Canaanite El doctrine against his son Hadad's (Marduk) new influence. Satan is also described as a son of God:

Job 1:7

Quote:

6 One day the angels [Hebrew: sons of Elohim] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

The explanation for that enigmatic statement of Satan can perhaps be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annunaki

Quote:

The Anunnaki were the High Council of the Gods, and Anu's companions. They were distributed through the Earth and the Underworld.

El like Anu had a divine council with his offspring (Anunnaki/Son of God) which is also spoken of in the OT (Psalm 82:1).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)

Quote:

In an Hurrian hymn to Ēl (published in Ugaritica V, text RS 24.278) he is called ’il brt and ’il dn which Cross (p. 39) takes as 'Ēl of the covenant' and 'Ēl the judge' respectively.

I could go on and on but I hope you get the picture and agree with me that there is reason to believe that both Jehova and Elohim is a (perhaps very very late) synchretising of mythologies from the whole area west of the Euphrates from Anu-Enlil-Enki(-Marduk). Perhaps this is even how the 'majestic plural' title of God (El), Elohim ("gods"), got started?

I see the serpent in Eden as equivalent to Prometheus btw, except this character (Venus the light bringer) is evil in the Bible.
The serpent is doomed to crawl on the ground, Prometheus is chained to the earth. Its the Venus symbolism of the wisdom/light-bringer, the morning star, saving humanity from darkness by liberating the world with the daylight/enlightenment (see also Statue of Liberty, Rev 22:16, St.George/Heracles rescue-the-maiden-myth)

Cesc · 04-07-2008, 08:23 PM

I forgot of course:

Israel = Cronos
12 sons of Israel = 12 Olympians

Like Anu lost the fight with his firstborn son who then precided over the gods, so did Uranus lose the fight with his son Cronos who then presided over the 12 Olympians. Jacob fights God and wins and has 12 sons equivalent of the 12 Olympians.
Israel is called by God "my firstborn son" in Exodus (4:22-23).

Also, Samson is equivalent with Heracles (and Melqart).

judge · 04-07-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Because they're both evolved almost directly from the Mesopotamian pantheon of Anu-Enlil-Enki.

So where would Ugarit fit into your scheme of things?

Cesc · 04-07-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Because they're both evolved almost directly from the Mesopotamian pantheon of Anu-Enlil-Enki.

So where would Ugarit fit into your scheme of things?

What exactly do you mean 'Ugarit'?

They had El, Asherah and Hadad and all the rest. And in Ebla they seemed to have identified 'El' under the name 'Ia' (Ea) or Jah.

Cesc · 04-08-2008, 12:20 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit

Quote:

Ugaritic religion centered on the chief god, Ilu or El, the "father of mankind", "the creator of the creation". The Court of El or Ilu was referred to as the 'lhm or Elohim.

Is this Court of El spoken of in the Bible as Elohim? Later made into one single god? Isnt this the Court of El who proclaims "Behold, he has become as one of us"?

Obviously there's more than one creator in Genesis. Fits perfectly with the Greek version where they create humans in their image ("our image" as "the gods"/God say in Genesis). Then they got the enlightenment from Venus (Prometheus/serpent). All they needed now to become full blown gods was eternal life which the Greeks never gave them and which the gods in Genesis were afraid the humans would attain from the Tree of Life.

Cesc · 04-08-2008, 12:54 AM

Enki and the story of Adams rib:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki

Quote:

Consuming his own semen he [Enki] falls pregnant (ill with swellings) in his jaw, his teeth, his mouth, his throat, his limbs and his rib. The gods are at a loss to know what to do, as Enki lacks a womb with which to give birth, until Ninhursag's sacred fox fetches the goddess.

Ninhursag relents and takes Enki's Ab (water, or semen) into her body, and gives birth to gods of healing of each part of the body. The last one - Ninti, Sumerian = Lady Rib, is also a pun on Lady Life, a title of Ninhursag herself. The story symbolically reflects the way in which life is brought forth through the addition of water to the land, and once it grows, water is required to bring plants to fruit. It also counsels balance and responsibility, nothing to excess.

Ninti, is given the title of the mother of all living, and was a title given to the later Hurrian goddess Kheba. This is also the title given to Eve (= Hebrew Chavvah), the Aramaic Hawwah, who was supposedly made from the Rib of Adam, in a strange reflection of the Sumerian myth.

Malachi151 · 04-08-2008, 05:26 AM

I don't think its quite that direct, but generally I agree.

Trout · 04-08-2008, 07:51 AM

At least the Greek gods were not supposed to be perfect. They were sort of like a big disfunctional family (with lightening bolts).

mrunicycler · 04-08-2008, 07:55 AM

I've always liked the comparison between Dionysis and Jesus. For both of their followers, wine is a huge symbol. Both are the son of god/zeuz, both have mortal mothers. Both were arrested and taken before a king. Both were subsequently killed and came back to life (Dionysis, of course, comes back every year as spring...right around the time Jesus is supposed to have died/come back).

There's more to the comparison, but this all I remember off the top of my head. Sorry, but I don't have time to refer to the notes I've made in some of the books I've read.

mens_sana · 04-08-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

OP: Because they're both evolved almost directly from the Mesopotamian pantheon of Anu-Enlil-Enki. At least thats the conclusion I've made so far and Im very curious as to what the opinions are about this. I didnt seem to be able to find anything about this on the site or anywhere else for that matter.

Can we use an analogy from human evolution? Apes and men have a common ancestor, but neither is descended from the other. It would seem to me that direct comparison might over simplify individual developments in the two cultures. This is a problem in The Golden Bough.

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04-07-2008, 08:23 PM	#2
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	I forgot of course: Israel = Cronos 12 sons of Israel = 12 Olympians Like Anu lost the fight with his firstborn son who then precided over the gods, so did Uranus lose the fight with his son Cronos who then presided over the 12 Olympians. Jacob fights God and wins and has 12 sons equivalent of the 12 Olympians. Israel is called by God "my firstborn son" in Exodus (4:22-23). Also, Samson is equivalent with Heracles (and Melqart).

04-08-2008, 05:26 AM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I don't think its quite that direct, but generally I agree.

04-08-2008, 07:51 AM	#8
Trout Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: the north Posts: 12,935	At least the Greek gods were not supposed to be perfect. They were sort of like a big disfunctional family (with lightening bolts).

04-08-2008, 07:55 AM	#9
mrunicycler Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sounding trumpets outside the walls of Louisville Posts: 2,242	I've always liked the comparison between Dionysis and Jesus. For both of their followers, wine is a huge symbol. Both are the son of god/zeuz, both have mortal mothers. Both were arrested and taken before a king. Both were subsequently killed and came back to life (Dionysis, of course, comes back every year as spring...right around the time Jesus is supposed to have died/come back). There's more to the comparison, but this all I remember off the top of my head. Sorry, but I don't have time to refer to the notes I've made in some of the books I've read.

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