Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 03:49 AM

How exactly were these terms used prior to their association with "Jesus"?

I know that in the OT anointed one is used to describe kings. I see that Josephus never uses the term Christ aside from in the two questionable passages regarding Jesus, but one of my questions is whether he could be referring to Jesus son of Damneus as a Christ, or "anointed one".

This seems to be possible, except for the fact that he never uses the term elsewhere or explains it.

So, at any rate, what was the usage of these terms prior to the rise of Christianity?

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 04:04 AM

I have written about this before.

I can't find it in the archives of IIDB, probably because it was posted before 2004.

Also, I may have posted also to JesusMysteries, but its old searchable mirror seems to be no more.

Any ideas on how to find my old posts to IIDB and JM on this issue?

--
Peter Kirby

gurugeorge · 12-12-2006, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

How exactly were these terms used prior to their association with "Jesus"?

I know that in the OT anointed one is used to describe kings. I see that Josephus never uses the term Christ aside from in the two questionable passages regarding Jesus, but one of my questions is whether he could be referring to Jesus son of Damneus as a Christ, or "anointed one".

This seems to be possible, except for the fact that he never uses the term elsewhere or explains it.

So, at any rate, what was the usage of these terms prior to the rise of Christianity?

I don't know the whole sweep of the answer to this, but a couple of curious factettes are that "Chrestus" meaning "good" was an ordinary name (sometimes used of ex-slaves), and both "Chrestus" meaning "good" and "Christos" meaning "anointed" (possibly a reference to the Mysteries) were epithets used on Greek and Roman tombstones long before the advent Christianity. (I used to have a monograph I found in a second-hand bookshop, by a 19th century amateur of antiquities who'd made a study of Greek and Roman tombstones and discovered this. Lost the damn thing in a basement flood!)

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 04:49 AM

I found these references...

Psalms of Solomon 18:6 [First Century B.C.]. "May God cleanse Israel against the day of mercy and blessing, Against the day of choice when He bringeth back His anointed [Messiah]."

4 Ezra 7:28-30 [Late First Century A.D.]. "For my son the Messiah shall be revealed to those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath."

2 Baruch 29:3 [Early Second Century A.D.]. "And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed."

...but I know I've written more before.

--
Peter Kirby

Malachi151 · 12-12-2006, 05:08 AM

Anointed one is used quite a bit in the OT:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...t=2&limit=none

Some specific examples are:

Quote:

1 Chronicles 16:
21 He allowed no man to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings:

22 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."

23 Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Quote:

2 Chronicles 6:
40 "Now, my God, may your eyes be open and your ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.

41 "Now arise, O LORD God, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. May your priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, may your saints rejoice in your goodness.

42 O LORD God, do not reject your anointed one. Remember the great love promised to David your servant."

Quote:

Psalm 2:
1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his anointed one.

3 "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters."

Quote:

Psalm 84:
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob. Selah

9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.

From other contexts we see that kings and sometimes priests were called anointed ones.

I just wonder if we have examples of real people being called anointed ones, or messiahs, or Christs within 200 years, give or take, of the "time of Jesus"?

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I just wonder if we have examples of real people being called anointed ones, or messiahs, or Christs within 200 years, give or take, of the "time of Jesus"?

Some scholar once claimed that the first example, barring JC, is Bar Kochba. I was trying to find the refrence; it's been discussed here.

This is not to say that there couldn't have been some that were not recorded in the literature. And, in any case, I'd rather that scholar be wrong, so I'm always looking.

--
Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle · 12-12-2006, 06:36 AM

http://www.blackwebportal.com/nuforu...m=7&Topic=1167

Quote:

The following is the etymology of the word Christ: "O.E. crist, from L. Christus, from Gk. khristos "the anointed" (translation of Heb. mashiah, see messiah), from khriein "to rub, anoint," title given to Jesus of Nazareth."

As you can see, Christ means "The Anointed". Now, let's see what the meaning of "anoint" is: "From O.Fr. enoint "smeared on," pp. of enoindre "smear on," from L. inunguere, from in- "on" + unguere "to smear." Originally in ref. to grease or oil smeared on for medicinal purposes; its use in the Coverdale Bible in ref. to Christ (cf. The Lord's Anointed, see chrism) has spiritualized the sense of it."

Now, we see that anointing is associated with smearing/rubbing oil on for medicinal purposes. It's important that I mention the fact that the story of Jesus was derived from the story of Heru/Horus. Jesus was called the Christ, which is derived from Heru/Horus being called the KRST, both meaning "The Anointed". Now that I've laid out the meanings of Christ and anointed and laid out the fact that they have their origins in Kemet/Egypt, we can now go explore what it was that our Kemetic ancestors used for anointing.

Where was that cannabis thread?

Peter Kirby · 12-12-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Where was that cannabis thread?

Check under "entheogenic theory" in the FAQ.

--
Peter Kirby

gstafleu · 12-12-2006, 12:34 PM

So can a case be made that translating ιησους (ο λεγομενος) χριστος as Jesus (who was called the) Christ is misleading? Should "Christ" just have been "anointed" in the translation? χριστος after all has a common (?) meaning in Greek (anointed), while "Christ" does not have that meaning in English. "Christ" in English thus conveys an aura of specialness, unusualness, of "something we've never seen before," that may not be in the original text.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle · 12-12-2006, 12:52 PM

http://www.freethinkerscs.com/articles/massey.html

Quote:

Outside of academic circles, the name Gerald Massey probably means very little to most people. He was, by all accounts, an extraordinary man with an unparalleled ability to piece together historical connections between cultures. But what truly set Massey apart from his contemporaries was a complete reluctance to compromise any of the evidence he uncovered based upon its theological implications -- an ethic that eventually led to his becoming one of the most preeminent Egyptologists of the late 1800's.

What Massey realized after years of diligent and dedicated research was that his own understanding of the basic underpinnings of Christianity had to be revised -- namely, that it wasn't original nor was it unique! Even the second century Christian historian Justin Martyr conceded as much when he wrote, "Whatever things were rightly said among the ancients are [now] the property of Christians." But why would Martyr find it necessary to stake such a claim? Massey eventually discovered precisely why: much of the Judeo/Christian tradition had borrowed its roots from the prevailing culture of the region -- the Egyptians.

12-12-2006, 03:49 AM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Uses of the term "Christ". "Messiah, or "Annointed One" How exactly were these terms used prior to their association with "Jesus"? I know that in the OT anointed one is used to describe kings. I see that Josephus never uses the term Christ aside from in the two questionable passages regarding Jesus, but one of my questions is whether he could be referring to Jesus son of Damneus as a Christ, or "anointed one". This seems to be possible, except for the fact that he never uses the term elsewhere or explains it. So, at any rate, what was the usage of these terms prior to the rise of Christianity?

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12-12-2006, 04:04 AM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I have written about this before. I can't find it in the archives of IIDB, probably because it was posted before 2004. Also, I may have posted also to JesusMysteries, but its old searchable mirror seems to be no more. Any ideas on how to find my old posts to IIDB and JM on this issue? -- Peter Kirby

12-12-2006, 04:49 AM	#4
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I found these references... Psalms of Solomon 18:6 [First Century B.C.]. "May God cleanse Israel against the day of mercy and blessing, Against the day of choice when He bringeth back His anointed [Messiah]." 4 Ezra 7:28-30 [Late First Century A.D.]. "For my son the Messiah shall be revealed to those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath." 2 Baruch 29:3 [Early Second Century A.D.]. "And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed." ...but I know I've written more before. -- Peter Kirby

12-12-2006, 12:34 PM	#9
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	So can a case be made that translating ιησους (ο λεγομενος) χριστος as Jesus (who was called the) Christ is misleading? Should "Christ" just have been "anointed" in the translation? χριστος after all has a common (?) meaning in Greek (anointed), while "Christ" does not have that meaning in English. "Christ" in English thus conveys an aura of specialness, unusualness, of "something we've never seen before," that may not be in the original text. Gerard Stafleu

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