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Old 09-22-2008, 08:40 AM   #1
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Default Under the presumption there was no HJ, reasons to set the story at time of Pilate...

As I try to weight the relative strengths and weaknesses of various propositions (HJ, MJ, FJ, etc.), the question keeps coming up, is there any significance to setting the timeframe for the story during Pilate's time? I can think of a few possibilities:

1) There was a general expectation of a Messiah at that time due to Daniel's 70 weeks
2) The Gospel author wished to show the Messiah arriving exactly 1 generation prior to the destruction of the temple (I'm not sure why he would want that)
3) Pilate's cruelty was legendary, so why not place the story at that time
4) It coincided with the end of the dominance of Julio-Claudian dynasty and the rise of the Flavians
5) It coincided with the new age of Pisces

Thoughts on the relative strengths or weaknesses of any of these? Under the presumption of a non-HJ, is there some other more compelling argument?
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:27 AM   #2
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One answer could be that early believers appeared around this time. If there were Judean "pillars" like Cephas, James and John, maybe their revelation of the Christ occured in Pilate's time. Or their public identification with the Christ sect occured then, maybe doing baptisms or eucharistic meals.
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:43 AM   #3
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Maybe it was due to Mark's use of Josephus.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:47 AM   #4
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Maybe it was due to Mark's use of Josephus.
Does Josephus consider Pilate's term to have been pivotal? (sorry I really should pick up a copy)
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:01 AM   #5
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Maybe it was due to Mark's use of Josephus.
Does Josephus consider Pilate's term to have been pivotal? (sorry I really should pick up a copy)
Probably not Pilate per se, but Tiberius...possibly (a Claudian by birth, a Julian by adoption). Tiberius may have been seen as an archtype for the Julio-Claudians?
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:33 AM   #6
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How would one going about showing xianity was actually intelligently designed by the Romans as a psychological war game to keep slaves peaceful and at the same time defang Judaism?

The game theory discussions here may be very useful.

I would argue Mark was the first attempt - probably with known psychological mind games, other gospels are riffs, and Paul comes along - possibly unrelated and builds on the religion in unpredicted ways.
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For one, show that the symbology was typically Roman and primarily alien to Jews.

Like, say, this image of another broken Roman enemy that was popular in Rome after the defeat of the enemy:



I mean, shit, why would the Yehudi pick an iconography so completely entrenched in slavery? especially considering that the crucifixion symbolism was much more entrenched in the Third Servile War (which resonated with Romans, but not the Yehudim) than in the Jewish War?

It's Roman iconography.
http://www.talkrational.org/showthre...?t=5671&page=2

Why would Pilate have been important in relation to Caesar's Messiah?
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:06 PM   #7
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Why would Pilate have been important in relation to Caesar's Messiah?
heh, that's the question... :huh:
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Old 09-22-2008, 04:18 PM   #8
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Default no living witnesses if the time is sufficiently past.

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Why would Pilate have been important in relation to Caesar's Messiah?
heh, that's the question... :huh:
And the answer to this question is elementary. Whoever were those wicked men who decided to write a fiction narrative, decided to set it back in the past an appropriate time so that there would be no living witnesses, and that whoever was in control of the technology of writing (ie: the preservation of hand-preserved literature) could write what they so wished and not have anyone standing up and saying something different.

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Old 09-22-2008, 08:36 PM   #9
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Default additionally good liars stay close to the truth

In addition spamandham, if we are to entertain the notion of a fictional historical jesus then those who were ultimately responsible for the fabrication, guided by the commonn sense of good liars, stay reasonably close to the truth. So a certain amount of known history needed to be cited in the fabrication, such as Eusebius tendering the writings of some wayward christian apologist from the early centuries claiming that the inscription on the statue on one of the bridges across the River Tiber had been erected by the Roman senate to Simon Magus. Utter bullshit. Yet a monument with a very similar inscription, at this location is today known to be a shrine to a pagan god.

Mani the Iranian sage was executed and his disciples persecuted all over the empire less than 30 years before the Councils of Antioch and Nicaea. The persecution of the Manichaeans has far more historicity than any Eusebian purported persecution of pre-Nicene christians.

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Old 09-23-2008, 12:53 AM   #10
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The destruction of the temple inspired a re-working of the Christian myth to show that that destruction was caused by the Jews rejection of Jesus. Hence, the crucifixion had to have been recent and earthly.
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