simon kole

I understand why you think that. I really do. It's more than odious to think we are not the center of the universe, but God is, and that we exist for his purposes, not our own. I understand how you feel. I really do.

simon kole

That the Bible is true is not the basis of my responses. What the Bible says is the basis of them.

Each gets to decide for himself if I have accurately relayed what it says.

dockeen

This sort of statement has been the appeal of tyrants throughout history, and they
have always had "clever" people to serve as their apologists.

I do sincerly wonder, if xtians were given a test in which their reality was shifted
into one at the nominal time or the end of their lords journey, would they be putting
themselves between him and the whips, or would they be on the side of those hurling the insults?

I wonder how many can take the time to honestly answer that question for themselves?

Sheshbazzar

I for one, do not think that mankind is the center of the universe, nor that any particular religion's imaginary Gob is either.
All religion is vanity, and vexation of the spirit.

We exist for exactly the same reasons as any other life-form on earth or anywhere else, natural conditions over billions of years were favorable to the development and evolution of life-forms.

This earth is a only one more insignificant and unimportant minute speck within the unmeasurable and unconceivable expanse of the natural universe.
Nothing special at all, except to the limited horizons of its life-forms in their struggle to survive and procreate.
The four billion years of this earth's existence is as only a second within the extent of all eternity. Mankind and everything on earth is headed to towards an ultimate extinction, and back into so much cosmic dust.

Religion makes an ass out of itself when it postulates that either man, or his imaginary gods, are of any importance at all.
We have today, and our extremely short lifetimes, and that is all. Like sparks from a campfire we rise, live, and glow brightly briefly, then turn to ashes and return into dust forevermore.
As the dead leaves on the forest floor never come back to life, and do not reattach ever to that tree from which they have once fallen, so it is with all living, man, beast, fish and fowl, grass and trees alike, one thing overtakes them all, and they perish forevermore.
Enjoy each day of this life to the best of your ability, Whatever you do, find your own satisfaction in a work that is well done. For when you go to your grave, there will be no work, no further planning, and no knowledge nor wisdom there evermore.
Today is the DAY. Rejoice and be glad in it. For tomorrow we die, and the vanity of all living perishes with us, evermore.

simon kole

I would hate to be put in that position, and if the Holy Spirit didn't give me the power to do that, I certainly wouldn't be volunteering to do it. Peter had the same problem. He couldn't even just admit he was a disciple, no whips involved.

simon kole

Well-articulated position.

Zenaphobe

Now that you changed the title, you've merely just stated the obvious. People have disagreed vehemently over doctrinal issues from the beginning, and until fairly recently in history, to the point of blood and executions.

Of course, you have a "get of jail free" card up your sleeve,

So, it's like God is playing 3 card monty with humanity. All you've done is made the case that, because God has the gun, he makes the rules.

That's all fine, well, and good if you want to drop omni-benevolence from the picture, but this adds just another issue to the mix.

The Bible says "God is love". Not "God loves", or "God shows love", but is love.

The same Bible describes love thus,

Pretty weird huh? Love can set up a spiritual gulag, save a couple specimens from the lineup, and revel in an eternity of them kissing his ass.

Now that's love! Except, it's not. Not like any kind of love as described above. Yea, I know, God's *secret will* to the rescue!

When someone comes along and says that the Bible does say "God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" but, he also has this secret will that can be in direct opposition to what his revealed will says, then we've entered the land that lies beyond the looking glass and down the rabbit hole.

It's as I alluded in another reply, we are trying to parse doublethink with your replies now.


I was there once, and no matter how you keep trying to spin it, it's intellectual suicide and what I refer to as Cosmic Stockholm Syndrome. Thanks for offering the Kool Aid, but I've given that stuff up and can't stand the taste. :Cheeky:

simon kole

Are you saying the Bible does not show what I have presented on the issue?

Is that not what can be seen in Pharoah's case?

I didn't write the book, I just examine what it says.

Which all are transliterations of what is found in the NT.

Call them as you see them, but they are what the NT says.

And I understand.

Jarhyn

Then if you do not make responses on the basis that the bible is true, your responses are simply NOISE with no meaning or purpose, which confound and muck up actual conversation on the subject.

I could for example, then, say all manner of untrue things and then not have to defend them because I am not saying them on the basis that they are true; I am just saying them to say them.

So do you, Simon Kole, believe that the bible is true?

Saramago

So, going back to the OP and interpreting in light of the basic doctrinal inconsistency (DI) you've revealed here, is this (below) how you see Adam/Eve & 'original sin'? You'd used a the term 'logical inconsistency' (LI) and seemed to draw a distinction between LI and DI; what did you mean by that?

1) God's revealed will was that Adam/Eve should not eat the forbidden fruit. Everyone since then (including but not limited to Adam/Eve) are judged based on this revealed will

2) However, God's secret will was that they should indeed eat the forbidden fruit (but you said God's secret will was about what he does/did; what would that be, creating the situation so the fruit-eating was bound to happen?)

Why not just create Adam & Eve already dead with an apple in their mouths (like pigs at a roast) & skip the middle man?