Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 12-22-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There are no corroborating sources for his claims about Massada. The claims about Herod are not corroborated. The claim about four philosophies has no basis. And the fact that the books under his name were only found among the church weakens credibility about the books as actual writings from the end of the 1st century.

what sources do "you" have for these baseless claims.

Opinion doesnt count here, unless stated as such.

Massada is backed by archeology and anthropology.

Name the credible historians that make these Josephas claims.

The 4 as you call them plilosophies, all existed, and are backed by more then just Josephas.

Minimalist · 12-22-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

There is sufficient reason to believe that "Josephus" is full of baloney

There are sufficient reasons to believe that every ancient historian was full of "baloney." ( I will be as polite as you are being. )

As for the Galilean occupation/forced conversion bit...

Quote:

There is some excuse for Jannai. His father had disliked him, possibly with good reason, and had shown his feelings by designating his younger brother Aristobulus as his successor. He had grown up in Galilee, where he had From Babylon to Bethlehem received a thoroughly Hellenistic, i.e. largely pagan, education. Contemporary kings probably commended his strong-arm methods.

S. Zeitlin summarizes the reason for the Pharisaic opposition as follows:
They believed he had made ]udaea a secular kingdom. They regarded him as a Hellenistic ruler who was a JUdaean only by birth. They also opposed his conquest of new territories and his forcing of the inhabitants to accept Judaism. This, to them, was a travesty of religious belief. The Pharisees favoured proselytism, but only by propaganda and teaching, not by force. Furthermore they feared that the conquest of new territories, inhabited by Syrians and Greeks, would have a demoralizing influence on the Judaeans. *

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pd.../chapter14.pdf

The work in question being From Babylon to Bethlehem by H. L. Ellison.

Duvduv · 12-22-2012, 08:36 PM

There is no evidence at all for all those suicides etc. according to Josephus. There is no corroboration for many other historical claims, not the least of which is about the Baptist and his alleged "four major philosophies". As a matter of fact, there is no historical corroboration even in Jewish sources for the alleged Yosef ben Mattityahu called Josephus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There are no corroborating sources for his claims about Massada. The claims about Herod are not corroborated. The claim about four philosophies has no basis. And the fact that the books under his name were only found among the church weakens credibility about the books as actual writings from the end of the 1st century.

what sources do "you" have for these baseless claims.

Opinion doesnt count here, unless stated as such.

Massada is backed by archeology and anthropology.

Name the credible historians that make these Josephas claims.

The 4 as you call them plilosophies, all existed, and are backed by more then just Josephas.

outhouse · 12-22-2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

There is sufficient reason to believe that "Josephus" is full of baloney

There are sufficient reasons to believe that every ancient historian was full of "baloney." ( I will be as polite as you are being. )

As for the Galilean occupation/forced conversion bit...

Quote:

There is some excuse for Jannai. His father had disliked him, possibly with good reason, and had shown his feelings by designating his younger brother Aristobulus as his successor. He had grown up in Galilee, where he had From Babylon to Bethlehem received a thoroughly Hellenistic, i.e. largely pagan, education. Contemporary kings probably commended his strong-arm methods.

S. Zeitlin summarizes the reason for the Pharisaic opposition as follows:
They believed he had made ]udaea a secular kingdom. They regarded him as a Hellenistic ruler who was a JUdaean only by birth. They also opposed his conquest of new territories and his forcing of the inhabitants to accept Judaism. This, to them, was a travesty of religious belief. The Pharisees favoured proselytism, but only by propaganda and teaching, not by force. Furthermore they feared that the conquest of new territories, inhabited by Syrians and Greeks, would have a demoralizing influence on the Judaeans. *

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pd.../chapter14.pdf

The work in question being From Babylon to Bethlehem by H. L. Ellison.

I never stated he was accurate in any sense.

I'll be the first to admit his numbers are often exaggerated.

And im sure his accuracy often delt with sources beyond his own reckoning.

In this case, dealing with the four groups within Judaism. There is absolutely no reason to question them as they all exist as stated outside his works.

outhouse · 12-22-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is no evidence at all for all those suicides etc. according to Josephus. There is no corroboration for many other historical claims, not the least of which is about the Baptist and his alleged "four major philosophies". As a matter of fact, there is no historical corroboration even in Jewish sources for the alleged Yosef ben Mattityahu called Josephus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

what sources do "you" have for these baseless claims.

Opinion doesnt count here, unless stated as such.

Massada is backed by archeology and anthropology.

Name the credible historians that make these Josephas claims.

The 4 as you call them plilosophies, all existed, and are backed by more then just Josephas.

So you have no sources?

Suicides. Well suicide or not, a historian records these events. has anyone at all with credibility claimed there was no suicide?

Does anyone with credibility claim Josephus didnt exist.?

Duvduv · 12-22-2012, 10:59 PM

There is no record anywhere corroborating the existence of Josephus in the first century, period. Not to mention his claims found nowhere else.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is no record anywhere corroborating the existence of Josephus in the first century, period. Not to mention his claims found nowhere else.

Ok so you have no sources at all, and have formed your own opinion.

That is all great, and atleast you have done enough homework to do such.

But your not addressing the historicity of events at Masada, nor are you addressing the 4 main groups within Judaism.

Addressing Josephas and how accurate he is, or isnt. Is another story.

Duvduv · 12-23-2012, 10:37 AM

The Jews at Masada (as presented by "Josephus") could have easily been starved out instead of there being a ramp built to attack them. But of course no remnants of the suicides exists for 960 people or even remnants of 15,000 Roman attackers exist.
Then of course we could throw in the fantasies about Qumran, but we'll leave that aside. Let's just say that it's ridiculous that a Jew would have talked about four "major philosophies" that included a tiny group of militants and a few unknown "Essenes" as "major philosophies". At the very least writings attributed to Josephus were tampered with, and just as likely there was no Josephus, and the writings attributed to him were put together by churchmen.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Jews at Masada (as presented by "Josephus") could have easily been starved out instead of there being a ramp built to attack them. But of course no remnants of the suicides exists for 960 people or even remnants of 15,000 Roman attackers exist.
Then of course we could throw in the fantasies about Qumran, but we'll leave that aside. Let's just say that it's ridiculous that a Jew would have talked about four "major philosophies" that included a tiny group of militants and a few unknown "Essenes" as "major philosophies". At the very least writings attributed to Josephus were tampered with, and just as likely there was no Josephus, and the writings attributed to him were put together by churchmen.

Churchmen didnt exist at that time. There was a first century historian recording events.

Josephas historicity is not in question here at all.

These are not 4 philosophies, they are 4 known groups that did exist. And zealots were not a tiny group of militants. They would have constituted a large portion of Judaism exceeding all other groups.

The tax war in 6 was caused by Judas the Zealot and labeled as the possible founder. The term Zealot is a general name used by those describing those who fought against the Roman oppression and over taxation. It itself, had sub sects like the Sicarii.

Why is it you have ZERO sources for your opinion.?

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Jews at Masada (as presented by "Josephus") could have easily been starved out instead of there being a ramp built to attack them. But of course no remnants of the suicides exists for 960 people or even remnants of 15,000 Roman attackers exist.
.

Your claims are baseless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

an expedition led by Israeli archeologist Yigael Yadin

The Roman ramp still stands on the western side and can be climbed on foot.

The meter-high circumvallation wall that the Romans built around Masada can be seen, together with eleven barracks for the Roman soldiers just outside this wall.

Josephas numbers have always been in question and are nothing new. It does not discount the historicity of these events at Masada. You will need credible evidence there wasnt a suicide.

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12-22-2012, 10:59 PM	#16
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	There is no record anywhere corroborating the existence of Josephus in the first century, period. Not to mention his claims found nowhere else.

12-23-2012, 10:37 AM	#18
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The Jews at Masada (as presented by "Josephus") could have easily been starved out instead of there being a ramp built to attack them. But of course no remnants of the suicides exists for 960 people or even remnants of 15,000 Roman attackers exist. Then of course we could throw in the fantasies about Qumran, but we'll leave that aside. Let's just say that it's ridiculous that a Jew would have talked about four "major philosophies" that included a tiny group of militants and a few unknown "Essenes" as "major philosophies". At the very least writings attributed to Josephus were tampered with, and just as likely there was no Josephus, and the writings attributed to him were put together by churchmen.

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