rhutchin

I guess we each have a different set of principles and morals.

We might conclude that you do not want to spend eternity with a God whom you believe does the detestable things that God does and allows. Such is your faith. And I thought you were an agnostic. Apparently not with respect to God.

I would choose to do the same thing that you are doing. A person's beliefs influence the choices they make.

That sounds good. You think God committed atrocities and I don't.

Yep. We both know it happens through indirect action by God (God does not make people blind through direct action (with exceptions such as Saul of Tarsus for a short time).

Yep. If Johnny Skeptic hates God and his son follows his footsteps and also hates God, then the son gets punished even as the father.

God opposes slavery for believers. He allows non-believers to make slaves of people.

People should ask God for mercy in such cases.

No animal will live forever. If God allows the innocent to die without intervening, then what do you think He will do with you who is not innocent.

God allowed the Nazis to kill Jews and gypsies and others. God allowed Stalin to kill millions. God allows the killing in the Middle east. People should petition God to bring peace.

God says that a person will reap what they sow. The amputee should ask God for help before the amputation; not after.

God will often put His servants on display for the world to see even as He did His son.

God will forgive without asking questions. Instead of parole, He offers a full pardon. People should take advantage of that.

God provides sufficient evidence for a person to be saved if he so desires.

If God is not the moral, loving, caring, compassionate being that the Bible says he is, then what do you think He will do to people when they stand before Him?

rhutchin

God has given sufficient evidence for a person to recognize his sin and to do something about it. There is no real need for God to do more.

Neil List

I've recently finished a spell of jury service at Oxford Crown Court. The judge instructed us to find a defendant guilty for failing to intervene in a violent attack that lead to murder and subsequently jailed him. Of course, under your reasoning the man is guilty of nothing at all. He simply allowed the attack/murder to take place and was under no obligation to intervene.

You say that 'God allowed the Nazis to kill Jews and gypsies'. What a truly appalling statement. The genocide of the Nazis was one of the most revolting periods in the history of mankind, and you believe that a loving God did what precisely? Willfully decided that despite the omnipotence and omniscience that he would not intervene? Entirely consistent with a character who has a taste for genocide himself but still...hardly in line with Jesus' teaching surely? I mean Jesus turned water to wine at a friggin wedding so don't tell me that miracles are only reserved for reaaallly important occasions. Like the folks at Auschwitz could have benefitted from a few...

One one hand I hope that one day you will wake up and understand the moral depravity inherent in the worship of a deity who by your own admission is accessory to genocide. On the other hand perhaps there is a bigger God somewhere else slapping his baseball bat into his palm and waiting to give the christian God the pasting he so richly deserves.

The capacity of the human mind to rationalise never ceases to amaze me "God allowed the Nazis to kill the jews and gypsies". Sheesh. You really believe that and still worship him? Try sticking up two fingers instead and at least having some moral backbone and dignity.

Angra Mainyu

The word “cause” is ambiguous, so in some cases, it depends on one’s definition. However, if BG existed and had created the rules that govern the universe, apart from the planet, I think He should be considered a cause of those disasters, and responsible for them. In other words, He would have created a planet where people die in natural disasters, while He could have done better and prevented that.

That said, if BG were real, I don’t think natural disasters would be particularly worse than the rest of what He’d have done. Essentially, He would have created death itself...then again, actual death doesn’t exist in Christianity. But it’d be much worse:

People get old and “die”…and then they would move to another BG-created plane of existence, where the vast majority of them would be tortured for eternity. I don’t see how BG could be excused.

Granted, I'm talking about BG, the God of the interpretation of the Bible that many conservative Protestants consider the true, literal interpretation. Maybe you have a different one; I don't know. But then again, other poeple could have (and I'm sure many people certainly do have) other interpretations, etc.

That would be bad enough, as He’d have knowingly created a world full of suffering that people cannot avoid… but I think the previous point subsumes it.

I disagree.

First, there’s the question of who made the Bible – who selected some books over others.
Second, translators condemned homosexuality. Whether the original writers condemned it, is debatable.
Third, even if the writers of the OT and those of the NT were against homosexuality, that would not imply that they were speaking for a God, and I don’t see how you reach that conclusion. For instance, it’s clear that the writers of the OT and the NT agreed that BG existed. That definitely doesn’t imply that He does.

I don’t know whether you are a literalist (as the word is usually used), but as far as I can tell, the Bible contains claims about the Universe, many of which are against what we observe (i.e., we don’t observe people resurrecting or walking on water; we observe that the dead stay dead and can't rise, and people cannot walk on water). Not to mention Creationsim, the Flood, etc.

There doesn’t seem to be any good reason to believe such claims. Incidentally, many other religions have made similar claims; in fact, anyone could make such a claim. But that’s no proof.

ETA: I see you don't believe in a global Flood, so your beliefs are different from those of rhutchin - and even though you consider that God is against homosexuality, I'm not sure what your stance on punishment is, so I'd like to know:

Do you think gay people should be punished for their sexuality?
If so, what kind of punishment would you support?
If not, why not?

Also, do you think gay people will be tortured for eternity in Hell?
Btw, do you want to debate and argue that Hell exists, or that it does not?

Johnny Skeptic

Now you know better than that. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Johnny: There are lots of other Scriptures that clearly prophesy that peace will not come to the world during this life, so according to the Bible, peace is not possible. Do you suggest that amputees ask God for new limbs, or aren't you aware that God discriminates against amputees? Have you asked God not to create any more hurricanes and kill people with them, including babies? If everyone in the world was just like you, do you believe that God would eliminate all sickness, and prevent hurricanes from killing people, and give all amputees new limbs?

One million people died of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians. There is no doubt that many of those people asked God to give them food, but to no avail. Who do you suppose created the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe?

Johnny Skeptic

I agree. My point is that if God does exist, he delilberately withholds additional evidence that he exists.

There is most certainly not enough evidence if it is God's desire to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. Surely God is able to convince more people to people Christians but refuses to do so. It is a question of how badly he wants people to go to heaven and not to hell.

It is not possible to reject a God unless you know that he exists. If the God of the Bible exists, the majority of the people in the world are not aware of it. Under our legal system, a man can be punished for breaking a law that he is not aware of, but no man can (or should) be sentenced to life in prison or death for breaking a law that he is not aware of. Millions of people are not certain whether or not at least one being exists who can instantly create a planet. If God has the power to do that, he could easily show up and demonstrate to everyone that he can do it. It is question of how badly God wants people to go to heaven, and not to hell. Logically, spiritual AND tangible evidence are much more convincing than spiritual evidence alone. That is just plain old common sense. Many people would become Christians if God provided them with additional tangible evidence. In those cases, people reject Christianity out of ignorance of the facts, not out of rejecting what they know are the facts. I am not aware of any skeptic in the world who would not like to be 100% certain whether or not there is at least on being in the universe who is able to instantly create planets.

Do you believe that God has the power to prevent hurricanes from injuring and killing people, and that he has the power to prevent rapists from raping women? If so, do you believe that God's refusal to prevent hurricanes from injuring and killing people, and his refusal to prevent rapists from raping women, is appropriate? Can you give me an example of a tangible benefit that Christians can ask God for and be assured that they will receive?

Berggy

I find it very interesting that no one cares if a tornado hits a specific spot, as long as there were no humans there to actually have to deal with getting hit by it. Yet, when something like a earthquake hits and people get hurt, God is the cause.

Where is your evidence to say that just because things like this happen that God is always responsible? The world is full of posibilites which depend on a number of factors. You must live in this world and have to deal with what happens in this world, regardless on who or what caused it. Just because something happens that hurts you in some form doesnt mean that God is responsible or made it happen or should have prevented it.

Have you ever considered that the problem resides on how you yourself believes that a God should only act a specific manner in which you personally would agree with?

I would argue that the Bible itself explicetly states, itself, that it interprets its own terminology and says what is says and doesnt need either mine, yours or anyone elses personal interpretation.

Knowingly create a world of suffering? The Bible never shows that in the beginning that there was suffering. Suffering arises from people wanting to do their own thing regardless on whether or not that is immoral and/or evil and against God's Laws. People have the right to choose what they want to do and that is the cause of suffering within the world - not God.

The books were selected the way they were because they agreed with each other and complimented and defined each other. That much is obvious, else the books of the Bible would completely contradict each other in principle, Law and attitude. The translators condemned homosexuality becuase they knew that it was unnatural and completely against everything was designed for.

I reach the conclusion that the Bible is God's Word because of all that is written within the Bible that is seen through-out the real world. A mention of the curses of Deuteronomy 28, that I see throughout the land of my people is just the tip of the ice-berg.

On their own, no, people cannot rise from the dead nor walk on water. That is where God comes in. Even more so, please explain what you mean by Creationism. Are you speaking about Young Earth Creationlism? Or...what?

I believe what the Bible states concerning homosexuality. I also contend that the Bible doesnt teach that people are tortured in an ever-burning pit of flame. That is Roman Catholic teaching. In addition, I contend that the Bible teaches that Hell is nothing short that the state of being dead, period. The opposite of life. Its like your sleeping in bed, but not dreaming. You lose conscienceness and wake up afterwards, not knowing anything in between and how you got to where you were when you wake up. Dead.

Berggy

There is no credibility to this claim. The Gods of the Bible are not required by your nor me to physically show themselves in order to prove that they exist.

You are the one who insisted that God was the cause of many the things that I proved you wrong about in my earlier posts. You were the one who insists all of these different things concerning the Bible and when you cannot prove it, you still hold to the notion that there is not enough evidence?

Let me spell it out for you; you dont know the Bible, you "think" you know the Bible. You have made claims about the Bible and those claims have been refuted. You think people go to heaven when they die? How about debating me, formally on this, so i can show you on how even THAT is not true?

Care to?

Johnny Skeptic

It is not a question of what is required, but of how much God loves people, and how badly he wants to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. There is most certainly not enough evidence if it is God's desire to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. Surely God is able to convince more people to people Christians but refuses to do so. It is a question of how badly he wants people to go to heaven and not to hell.

It is not possible to reject a God unless you know that he exists. If the God of the Bible exists, the majority of the people in the world are not aware of it. Under our legal system, a man can be punished for breaking a law that he is not aware of, but no man can (or should) be sentenced to life in prison or death for breaking a law that he is not aware of. Millions of people are not certain whether or not at least one being exists who can instantly create a planet. If God has the power to do that, he could easily show up and demonstrate to everyone that he can do it. Logically, spiritual AND tangible evidence are much more convincing than spiritual evidence alone. That is just plain old common sense. Many people would become Christians if God provided them with additional tangible evidence. In those cases, people reject Christianity out of ignorance of the facts, not out of rejecting what they know are the facts. I am not aware of any skeptic in the world who would not like to be 100% certain whether or not there is at least one being in the universe who is able to instantly create planets.

From a Christian perspective, everything that happens in the world except for the choices that humans make is caused or allowed by God, so you obviously do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about. No hurricane can injure and kill people, including babies, without God's permission. No rapist can rape a woman unless he has God's permission. Now are you actually going to claim that the Devil originally created hurricanes, and has always determined where they go? God did not allow babies to be killed by natural causes at Sodom and Gomorrah. He deliberately killed them. In addition, he did not allow the firstborn males in Egypt to die. He deliberately killed them.

I first need to know what you believe about the afterlife and eternal torment. What do you believe happens to Christians and skeptics after they die?

Johnny Skeptic

Now you know better than that. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Johnny: There are lots of other Scriptures that clearly prophesy that peace will not come to the world during this life, so according to the Bible, peace is not possible. Do you suggest that amputees ask God for new limbs, or aren't you aware that God discriminates against amputees? Have you asked God not to create any more hurricanes and kill people with them, including babies? If everyone in the world was just like you, do you believe that God would eliminate all sickness, and prevent hurricanes from killing people, and give all amputees new limbs?

One million people died of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians. There is no doubt that many of those people asked God to give them food, but to no avail. Who do you suppose created the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe?