Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Newton's Cat · 05-25-2006, 03:38 PM

Mark 6,3

Is not this man the carpenter, the son of Mary ....?

The Greek word used is 'Tektwn' - could it be that there has been a transcribing mistake here?

'Teknon' means "child", "young boy"

The context could be that Jesus had left his home town when he was a child.

Is not this man the child/young boy (who lived here), the son of Mary ...?

If he was the local carpenter surely the question as to who he is wouldn't have needed to be asked - but if they hadn't seen him for a decade or more?

WishboneDawn · 05-25-2006, 03:46 PM

Sure, go take a man's whole livelyhood away from him!

Gamera · 05-25-2006, 03:48 PM

An interesting paleographic reading.

But I think you miss the import of the passage. The issue isn't whether he was recognized by the town folk. The point is, he was recognized. They're amazed if not indignant that this carpenter, this working man, is acting as if he were a learned rabbi. That's why they emphasize his occupation.

Here's the context.

Mark 6:1 He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. 4

In short, the quote is ironic. They're mocking him as a lowly person who has purported to have done great things and now is acting like a big shot, when they know better, because they know him and his family as just regular people.

By the way this not only fits this passage, but the general theme of the synoptic gospels about the failure of those around him to recognize his status as the messiah.

No Robots · 05-25-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

They're amazed if not indignant that this carpenter, this working man, is acting as if he were a learned rabbi. That's why they emphasize his occupation.

Calling him "boy" could be just as much of a put-down. Something like "whippersnapper", maybe. Of course, I don't know enough to say whether Newton's Cat's hypothesis is at all valid. I just know that I like it.

Mathetes · 05-25-2006, 04:02 PM

1. To be annoyingly pedantic, since "teknon" is neuter and "tektwn" is masculine, you also have to change the gender of the article, from "OUX OUTOS ESTIN TO TEKNON" to "OUX OUTOS ESTIN O TEKTWN". Summarizing, a nu becomes a tau, an omicron becomes an omega, and a tau is dropped.

Not to say it is not possible, but sounds like a bit of free flowing speculation.

2. "Tektwn" is mainly a carpenter, but it also may be used to designate another types of craftmen, in general.

RUmike · 05-25-2006, 04:11 PM

Another thing to consider is that we have Matthew's gospel, which used Mark's text within probably less than 2 decades of its creation. Matthew transfers the title to Jesus' father, but clearly tektwn was in the Markan text available to him at the time.

Clivedurdle · 05-26-2006, 03:12 AM

Terry Jones (ex Python so not to be trusted!) in Barbarian makes a comment about the term carpenter - I can't remember the details - in the celtic world and it may be too tight a definition.

As witches blacksmiths and druids were all lumped together as magicians - the technical feat of getting beautiful swords from bits of stone would look like magic - there probably is something else going on. It seems the earliest roads were celtic and made from wood, and the celts before the Romans had mastered the art of enclosing a wheel in an iron "tyre" and of lightweight war chariots. A carpenter may have been a highly skilled senior role in the heirarchy. And would they have specialised in wood or in both timber and metals?

The Bishop · 05-26-2006, 05:11 AM

A.N. Wilson, in Jesus (1992) made a claim that TEKTWN was "trying to represent the Aramaic naggar", and on this he tried to build a case that Joseph wasn't a carpenter, but a scholar. I go a long way with Wilson, but this seemed just nonsensical. First of all, he's saying it's a translation from Aramaic, as if the statements "Isn't this the tektwn's son?" were taken down verbatim by shorthand reporters.:eyeroll: Secondly, since Jesus was doing miracles and preaching, it's hardly surprising behaviour from a scholar's son - which removes the point of having said it in the first place! Thirdly, the person who wrote the original Greek certainly understood the context, and would surely have written a different Greek word if he'd meant one.

05-25-2006, 03:38 PM	#1
Newton's Cat Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,181	A slip of the pen - and Jesus became a carpenter! Mark 6,3 Is not this man the carpenter, the son of Mary ....? The Greek word used is 'Tektwn' - could it be that there has been a transcribing mistake here? 'Teknon' means "child", "young boy" The context could be that Jesus had left his home town when he was a child. Is not this man the child/young boy (who lived here), the son of Mary ...? If he was the local carpenter surely the question as to who he is wouldn't have needed to be asked - but if they hadn't seen him for a decade or more?

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05-25-2006, 03:46 PM	#2
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	Sure, go take a man's whole livelyhood away from him!

05-25-2006, 03:48 PM	#3
Gamera Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 10,955	An interesting paleographic reading. But I think you miss the import of the passage. The issue isn't whether he was recognized by the town folk. The point is, he was recognized. They're amazed if not indignant that this carpenter, this working man, is acting as if he were a learned rabbi. That's why they emphasize his occupation. Here's the context. Mark 6:1 He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. 4 In short, the quote is ironic. They're mocking him as a lowly person who has purported to have done great things and now is acting like a big shot, when they know better, because they know him and his family as just regular people. By the way this not only fits this passage, but the general theme of the synoptic gospels about the failure of those around him to recognize his status as the messiah.

05-25-2006, 04:02 PM	#5
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	1. To be annoyingly pedantic, since "teknon" is neuter and "tektwn" is masculine, you also have to change the gender of the article, from "OUX OUTOS ESTIN TO TEKNON" to "OUX OUTOS ESTIN O TEKTWN". Summarizing, a nu becomes a tau, an omicron becomes an omega, and a tau is dropped. Not to say it is not possible, but sounds like a bit of free flowing speculation. 2. "Tektwn" is mainly a carpenter, but it also may be used to designate another types of craftmen, in general.

05-25-2006, 04:11 PM	#6
RUmike Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 491	Another thing to consider is that we have Matthew's gospel, which used Mark's text within probably less than 2 decades of its creation. Matthew transfers the title to Jesus' father, but clearly tektwn was in the Markan text available to him at the time.

05-26-2006, 03:12 AM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Terry Jones (ex Python so not to be trusted!) in Barbarian makes a comment about the term carpenter - I can't remember the details - in the celtic world and it may be too tight a definition. As witches blacksmiths and druids were all lumped together as magicians - the technical feat of getting beautiful swords from bits of stone would look like magic - there probably is something else going on. It seems the earliest roads were celtic and made from wood, and the celts before the Romans had mastered the art of enclosing a wheel in an iron "tyre" and of lightweight war chariots. A carpenter may have been a highly skilled senior role in the heirarchy. And would they have specialised in wood or in both timber and metals?

05-26-2006, 05:11 AM	#8
The Bishop Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London Posts: 215	A.N. Wilson, in Jesus (1992) made a claim that TEKTWN was "trying to represent the Aramaic naggar", and on this he tried to build a case that Joseph wasn't a carpenter, but a scholar. I go a long way with Wilson, but this seemed just nonsensical. First of all, he's saying it's a translation from Aramaic, as if the statements "Isn't this the tektwn's son?" were taken down verbatim by shorthand reporters.:eyeroll: Secondly, since Jesus was doing miracles and preaching, it's hardly surprising behaviour from a scholar's son - which removes the point of having said it in the first place! Thirdly, the person who wrote the original Greek certainly understood the context, and would surely have written a different Greek word if he'd meant one.

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