Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johann_Kaspar · 03-03-2007, 01:59 AM

Mt 14:25, Mk 6:48, Jn 6:19

Can you do better than the xian explanation? Usually it is presented as "faith can do all". Bultmann treats it as a "Naturwunder"...

Toto · 03-03-2007, 02:11 AM

The people who think that Jesus went to India in his teenage years point out that walking on water is something he would have learned there, along with levitation.

Johann_Kaspar · 03-03-2007, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The people who think that Jesus went to India in his teenage years point out that walking on water is something he would have learned there, along with levitation.

Well, Toto, I don't ask what other people think about it (so far I read only crap), but what do YOU think, what is YOUR explanation...

Steve Weiss · 03-03-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Mt 14:25, Mk 6:48, Jn 6:19

Can you do better than the xian explanation? Usually it is presented as "faith can do all". Bultmann treats it as a "Naturwunder"...

You make many assumptions in framing your question. You assume that one must explain events for which there is no evidence. You also assume the validity of the bible. Since you assume that the bible is correct, then you also assume that the other miracles related in the bible are also correct. None of these assumptions are justified. You are begging the question by assuming what one must prove.

By definition, miracles are beyond explanation, and therefore, one must choose reason or faith in myths. How any reasonably rational and intelligent adult can believe in the nonsensical events related in the bible is the greatest mystery to me. Is the brainwashing of childhood so strong that it totally shuts one's eyes to the facts of reality? Apparently so, given your question.

Malachi151 · 03-03-2007, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Mt 14:25, Mk 6:48, Jn 6:19

Can you do better than the xian explanation? Usually it is presented as "faith can do all". Bultmann treats it as a "Naturwunder"...

Yes, and have done so in my article:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

Quote:

Jesus Walks on the Water:
T2: Matthew 14:25 - Isaiah 43:5-6:
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. ... For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;"

Note also, from the article:

Quote:

ODE 39:
1 Great rivers are the power of the Lord: 2 And they carry headlong those who despise Him: and entangle their paths: 3 And they sweep away their fords, and catch their bodies and destroy their lives. 4 For they are more swift than lightning and more rapid, and those who cross them in faith are not moved; 5 And those who walk on them without blemish shall not be afraid. 6 For the sign in them is the Lord; and the sign is the way of those who cross in the name of the Lord; 7 Put on, therefore the name of the Most High, and know Him and you shall cross without danger, for the rivers will be subject to you. 8 The Lord has bridged them by His word; and He walked and crossed them on foot: 9 And His footsteps stand firm on the water, and are not injured; they are as firm as a tree that is truly set up. 10 And the waves were lifted up on this side and on that, but the footsteps of our Lord Messiah stand firm and are not obliterated and are not defaced. 11 And a way has been appointed for those who cross after Him and for those who adhere to the course of faith in Him and worship His name. Hallelujah.
- The Odes of Solomon, ? (Most scholars say after 70 CE due to Gospel parallels)

These are the four main odes that lead scholars to date the work after the Gospels, and perhaps it was written after the Gospels, but there are serious issues to address. The most significant issue, I believe, is in relation to Ode 39. Ode 39 discusses walking on water, and Christian scholars believe that this passage must be patterned after the Gospel accounts of Jesus walking on water. Scholars who believe in the existence of Jesus presume that the story of walking on water in the Gospels was inspired by some real act Jesus performed, and thus this discussion of walking on water would have to be based on that event, it couldn't be the other way around, but let's take a closer look. Isaiah 43, from the Old Testament, reads as follows:

Isaiah 43:5-6:
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. ... For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;"

Read Ode 39 again. Now, Christian scholars claim that The Odes of Solomon were most likely influence by the Gospel of John, so I will compare this passage to the walking on water account from the Gospel of John, but you are free to compare it against the other Gospels as well, they compare no more favorably.

John 6:
16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed twenty-five or thirty stadia, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20 But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid." 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.

22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

Read Ode 39 again. Clearly, if anything, the Gospel account copies from the ode, not the other way around. The ode is clearly, if anything, based on Isaiah 43, not the Gospel account. The ode talks about rivers, not a lake, and it says nothing about a boat. The passage from Isaiah says that the "Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior," is the one who is with you, and that is certainly enough of a passage to arrive at the notion of the Lord Messiah being with you. There is really no question, Ode 39 is closer to Isaiah 43 than it is to John 6 (or Mark, Matthew, or Luke). If anything, the development of this theme seems to be from Isaiah 43 to Ode 39 to the Gospels, or both the Ode and the Gospels are independently derived from Isaiah 43.

rjf · 03-03-2007, 07:09 AM

My explanation is simple: the Bible is a work of fiction, Jebus may never even have existed, and if he did, we have no good reason to believe that he said or did any of the things credited to him.

Jayrok · 03-03-2007, 07:29 AM

2 Kings 2:6-7 -- 6 Elijah then said to Elisha, "Now the LORD wants me to go to the Jordan River, but you must stay here."

Elisha replied, "I swear by the living LORD and by your own life that I will never leave you!" So the two of them walked on together.

7Fifty prophets followed Elijah and Elisha from Jericho, then stood at a distance and watched as the two men walked toward the river. 8When they got there, Elijah took off his coat, then he rolled it up and struck the water with it. At once a path opened up through the river, and the two of them walked across on dry ground.

2 Kings 2:12-14 -- 12Elisha saw this and shouted, "Israel's cavalry and chariots have taken my master away!" After Elijah had gone, Elisha tore his clothes in sorrow. 13Elijah's coat had fallen off, so Elisha picked it up and walked back to the Jordan River. 14 He struck the water with the coat and wondered, "Will the LORD perform miracles for me as he did for Elijah?" As soon as Elisha did this, a dry path opened up through the water, and he walked across.

This can be a parallel to Jesus and Peter walking on the water. Elijah (Jesus) is going to be taken away soon. He and Elisha walk across the Jordan river on dry land (Reminiscent of the exodus and the Red Sea) similar to Jesus and Peter walking across the lake.

When Elijah had gone away to heaven, Elisha wondered if he could walk back across the Jordan without Elijah there with him. Just like Peter, his faith was tested. Elisha had sufficient faith as the replacement for Elijah in the story.

But with Peter, it wouldn't do for him to have faith parallel with Jesus the Son of God... so he began to sink. He wasn't supposed to be Jesus' replacement, therefore he couldn't do the same as Jesus like Elisha could do with Elijah. In the end, Jesus is the main character and above all.

As an aside... Notice verse 6 where Elisha swears to Elijah on the Living Lord that he will never leave him. Sound familiar? Peter swore he would never leave Jesus. But since Jesus is the star of the show, Peter is shown to be lesser in stature and is written to deny Jesus 3 times. Peter is shown to be lesser in stature to Jesus on the Lake as well as his faith was weak causing him to sink.

Jayrok · 03-03-2007, 07:32 AM

Here's another explanation:

The Son walks across the water

Son = Sun

Steve Weiss · 03-03-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjf

My explanation is simple: the Bible is a work of fiction, Jebus may never even have existed, and if he did, we have no good reason to believe that he said or did any of the things credited to him.

I second this point of view.

Chili · 03-03-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Is there any point to this verbiage? Sounds like "1984" double-speak to me.

If nothing else, it would be difficult to bring wrong opinion to understanding.

03-03-2007, 01:59 AM	#1
Johann_Kaspar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: France Posts: 1,831	Yeshua walking on the sea, what is your explanation? Mt 14:25, Mk 6:48, Jn 6:19 Can you do better than the xian explanation? Usually it is presented as "faith can do all". Bultmann treats it as a "Naturwunder"...

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03-03-2007, 02:11 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The people who think that Jesus went to India in his teenage years point out that walking on water is something he would have learned there, along with levitation.

03-03-2007, 07:09 AM	#6
rjf Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 484	My explanation is simple: the Bible is a work of fiction, Jebus may never even have existed, and if he did, we have no good reason to believe that he said or did any of the things credited to him.

03-03-2007, 07:29 AM	#7
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	2 Kings 2:6-7 -- 6 Elijah then said to Elisha, "Now the LORD wants me to go to the Jordan River, but you must stay here." Elisha replied, "I swear by the living LORD and by your own life that I will never leave you!" So the two of them walked on together. 7Fifty prophets followed Elijah and Elisha from Jericho, then stood at a distance and watched as the two men walked toward the river. 8When they got there, Elijah took off his coat, then he rolled it up and struck the water with it. At once a path opened up through the river, and the two of them walked across on dry ground. 2 Kings 2:12-14 -- 12Elisha saw this and shouted, "Israel's cavalry and chariots have taken my master away!" After Elijah had gone, Elisha tore his clothes in sorrow. 13Elijah's coat had fallen off, so Elisha picked it up and walked back to the Jordan River. 14 He struck the water with the coat and wondered, "Will the LORD perform miracles for me as he did for Elijah?" As soon as Elisha did this, a dry path opened up through the water, and he walked across. This can be a parallel to Jesus and Peter walking on the water. Elijah (Jesus) is going to be taken away soon. He and Elisha walk across the Jordan river on dry land (Reminiscent of the exodus and the Red Sea) similar to Jesus and Peter walking across the lake. When Elijah had gone away to heaven, Elisha wondered if he could walk back across the Jordan without Elijah there with him. Just like Peter, his faith was tested. Elisha had sufficient faith as the replacement for Elijah in the story. But with Peter, it wouldn't do for him to have faith parallel with Jesus the Son of God... so he began to sink. He wasn't supposed to be Jesus' replacement, therefore he couldn't do the same as Jesus like Elisha could do with Elijah. In the end, Jesus is the main character and above all. As an aside... Notice verse 6 where Elisha swears to Elijah on the Living Lord that he will never leave him. Sound familiar? Peter swore he would never leave Jesus. But since Jesus is the star of the show, Peter is shown to be lesser in stature and is written to deny Jesus 3 times. Peter is shown to be lesser in stature to Jesus on the Lake as well as his faith was weak causing him to sink.

03-03-2007, 07:32 AM	#8
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	Here's another explanation: The Son walks across the water Son = Sun

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