Johnny Skeptic

Thanks, CJD. That helps my arguments. My opening post directly opposes the notion of salvation "by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast." What we need are some comments from Christians who disagree with my opening post.

jonesg

Faith without Works is a favourite saying in AA, its just basic spiritual common sense. To profess faith but do nothing with it is to disobey Gods will. Sin has a tendency to fester and grow, so without works faith just dies.

I believe Paul said it the other way around, works without faith is dead.

They're both talking about the same thing from different angles.
One is about the fruit's of faith
the other is about the roots of faith.
Its a 2 part deal, one without the other doesn't yield the intended results.

Johnny Skeptic

The key verse that is contrary to fundamentalist Christian theology is James 2:14. It reads "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith [alone] save him?" [The implication is no.] In other words, James says that salvation is not available without works.

Chili

You are right, salvation is not available without works but all the works in the world and all the faith on earth combined cannot achieve heaven. So one or the other does not belong in that context . . . yet faith and works is true wherefore works must be pitted against faith in the final or par-ousia.

Chili

But if you receive a prophet in the name of a prophet (because he is a prophet) you have already received your reward so it is wrong to do good works in the name of religion.

CJD

Just to be clear, you ought to know that Paul is clearly speaking of Torah in the above quote you reference. Salvation comes via faith (and faithfulness, itself a "work") in and to the messiah, not through works of Torah (ironically, so Paul, this faith becomes a fulfillment of Torah). A better apparent contradiction would be found in Rom. 3:28.

James is talking about "justification" (not synonymous with "salvation" — though the former does certainly lead to the latter). This is important for one reason and one reason only: Paul seems to be referring to a present "justification," one in which the believer is declared right with God in the present, once faith is manifest. James, on the other hand, with all his emphasis on the coming judgment, seems to be speaking of a future "justification," a vindication or validation of that initial faith (or declaration of right-ness) that takes into account the works produced by those who do indeed truly believe.

What this has to do with the merit theology of the Roman Catholic Church, I am not so sure.

CJD

Johnny Skeptic

James 2:14 says "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" Does the verse not talk about salvation?

In a pervious post I said the following:

What is you your opinion of my comments? Why should Christians be concerned how many good works they do.

Chili

Correct, we are justified by faith in the heart (Rom 10:10) and not faith in the mind that is aimed towards the coming of the messiah. Faith in the heart is not Jewish or Catholic (Rom.3:28) but is generated in Catholicsm between the Cardinal Virtues and Capital sins -- without any claim to fame since they can and will convict us each and every day.

The justification of Roman 10:10 (as opposed to the faith-fulness suggested by earned righteousness) is used by Paul to include the pagans in Gods idea of righteousness.

CJD

By "save" yes, James is talking about eschatological deliverance. He is asking (rhetorically), "Does that kind of faith deliver a person from the eschatological judgment?" The obvious answer is, of course, no. But he goes on to speak of it in terms of "justification," which is, again, not the same thing as "salvation," for the justification of which James speaks is that which will take place during the final, eschatological judgment by YHWH. James' emphasis here shows that he is using the word justify differently than Paul does — in Rom. 3:28, for example. Indeed, James is following more closely an earlier tradition, while Paul, apparently feeling the tension of how the messiah could have come and gone without the final judgment taking place, expands on justification to include a present element in a typically future expectation. In other words, Paul, knowing and believing and hoping in a future justification or vindication, wants to say that in some sense we are already justified "by faith in the Christ — not through works of torah," which leads us to your previous post.

Simply because they will not be vindicated on that final day if they do not do them. If the question is truly why be concerned with how many they do, I'm sure the only response is that it's not conceived of in quantifiable terms (again, like the merit system of Rome); rather, it's an entire way of life. Those who do conceive of it in terms of 'doing the least of amount of good to get by', in my estimation, would not be 'walking in the Spirit' to begin with.

CJD

Edited to add: Ironically, one needn't go through the trouble of pitting James against Paul. Just pit Romans 2 against Romans 3.

Maybe there's a little James in Paul trying to get out?

Johnny Skeptic

What do you mean by vindicated? What would the penalty be for doing only a minimal amount of good works? Will any Christian end up being sorry that he didn't do more good works?

Regarding doing a lot of good works, a professing Christian lady once told me that all that she wanted to do was to get her foot in the door to heaven, and that that would be good enough for her? Do you believe that she will go to heaven?

Regarding "it's not conceived of in quantifiable terms," it most certainly is as far as Jesus is concerned. The texts say that he will judge every man according to his works. If good works are not quantifiable, Jesus would have no means of judging each man according to his works. Let's assume that there are three general categories of Christians, 1) committed, 2) moderately committed, and 3) nominally committed. In your opinion, will the rewards vary among the three groups? Which category are you in? Which category do you want to be in? How much relaxation and free time for pleasurable pursuits do you believe that the disciples granted to themsleves?