Weltall

We can argue endlessly about Hell and the justification (or more appropriately the lack therof) for it but it really doesn't mean anything unless someone can prove that it exists. Asserting that It Is So doesn't mean much to us. Just something to keep in mind.
Then why, pray tell, does God not make it clear and unambiguous what we need to do to stay out of Hell? It seems like Christians can't decide amongst themselves. Does faith alone get you out of Hell, or do you need Works as well? What laws do you need to keep, which can you ignore? Why does God see fit to play a cosmic game of hide and seek with us and then blame us for not believing in him in the complete absence of evidence for his existence?
I don't know, what was the question?
It's a worthless threat because it doesn't exist. The purpose of Hell is to keep the believers in line and to satisfy the basic urge to see one's enemies suffer even if only in the imagination.
I couldn't agree with you more. I just don't see the need to spend what little precious time I do have believing in a being that may or may not exist, but for whom no evidence has been presented.
You see, we don't believe there is any need to postulate a god who gave us the gift of life.
I think it's because God has a bad sense of humor. I mean, look at the platypus, what was He thinking?!
For some reason, I picture a Prophet crackling with energy before blowing up into itty-bitty bits. I assume that God must consider the job of explaining things to the masses to be over, seeing that nobody has heard from him in 2000 years (allegedly, the actual number should be more like 'never').
Well, say something at least, any evidence at all would be nice.
So Heaven and Hell are beyond human understanding, but you seem to understand it... riiiiigggght. Nodding and smiling.
I prefer to skip the bowing and scraping, I've never been fond of the idea of talking to the voices in my head.
We need a smiley doing the peace sign.
Once again, we can't thank what doesn't exist, but that's an EoG topic.

Chili

Yes I did "make it up" in the sense that I am retelling the same story in my own words. I do not really claim to be right but if the obvious and seeming contradictions compliment each other in my version it adds weight to the credibility of my story. It is just really a concept that I am trying to defend.

Yes many Christians do claim that the bible is inerrant but they do not know how to deal with the many obvious contradictions from their perspective.

greyline

There have been numerous threads here about bible contradictions, and many Christians have no problem at all reconciling them. If they did have problems, they'd surely lose their faith. From reading testimonials here, it seems that, indeed, bible errors are a major factor in loss of faith.

Chili

Yes there has been and it takes a lot of dishonesty on their part to maintain that faith despite the many errors in the bible as perceived by them.

Of course, I maintain the argument that if hell is a place on earth "the strength of the wine of Gods anger that was poured in the cup of his wrath" becomes the deciding factor of whether or not they can actually deny their faith. This line comes from Rev.14:10 so we are dealing with two contributing factors here: first the amount and second the strength of this wine that they drank.

The idea that hell is not just 'skin-deep' is first brought to us by the "children of Israel" who wandered in the desert for 40 years where they were torn in the saved-sinner complex (and died nonetheless). They, already then, failed to mature and become Israel like David did. Next we have the Inquisitors prove in the most fancy-full ways that there is 'no way on earth' to extinguish the fire that is burning within (was tragic wasn't it?). These days there are many different deconversion programs available in places like the US to help believers deal with this same problem while 'the other side' keep fanning it (still tragic isn't it?).

may

Hi

The Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" mean the same thing. Websters Dictionary says that the English word "Hell" is equal to the Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades".

In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity, or torment. Rather it is often linked with death and inactivity. For example think about Ecclestiastes 9:10 which reads "all that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work or devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in sheol (grave, King James Version, Hell, Douay Version), the place to which you are going. So the answer becomes very clear. Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of all mankind.

Chili

Hi to you too and thanks for your input, but I doubt very much if those mythmakers thought that we needed to be told that there is no work to do once we are death and buried. I think the idea expressed here that hell is very shallow and a real handicap for those who want to get somewhere in this life.

jcain6

The word “Hell� was unknown to the original authors of the bible. They made use of the Hebrew word “Sheol�. Sheol was considered to be a place of shadowy existence to which all were sent indiscriminately; some scholars believe that Sheol may have simply been a poetic metaphor for death rather than an after life. The OT depicts Sheol as a dark city with impregnable walls and barred gates; it was a place of no return for both good and bad souls. Before the original authors wrote the OT there were similar “shadowy� existences where the dead went. Sometime around the first millennium BC these “shadowy� existences became places reserved to punish wrongdoers who died. In some mythologies these places were where the great gods banished the not so great gods. In Zoroastrianism the anti-god Ahriman lived beneath the Earth in the house of lie after being banished there by Ahura Mazda. The house of lie was depicted as a place of filthiness. In other Persian religions there were many places that were similar. Pre-Semitic peoples believed in Belial, a god of demons, who lived in a pit under the ocean. There was Moloch, who demanded child sacrifices and ruled a land of Gehenna, thought by some to be a land of fire and lava (sound familiar). Gehenna was a valley near Jerusalem where garbage was burned. The word “Gahenna� comes from the Hebrew word “Gai-Ben-Hinnom� and it means “Valley of the Son of Hinnom�. Gehenna was also a location where bodies of executed criminals and the indigent were dumped to rot, burn, and fester. Sounds like Hell to me.

All of these wonderful places eventually became the Christian Hell. It wasn’t until the 6th century AD that Sheol was modified by Catholicism to be a place where the sinful would be burned for all eternity. There are no direct statements about Satan ruling hell and the role was assigned to him by other Christian writings. Satan is basically Moloch, Ahriman, and other scary characters blurred together.


Good article on translation of Sheol: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html

jcain6

A more complete version of the link above is at

http://www.abcog.org/thayer.htm

It was written by Thomas B. Thayer in the late 1800s.

may

HELL

A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew she´ohl´ and the Greek hai´des. In the King James Version the word “hell� is rendered from she´ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she´ohl´ is also translated 31 times “grave� and 3 times “pit.� In the Douay Version she´ohl´ is rendered “hell� 64 times, “pit� once, and “death� once.

In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word she´ohl´ was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, “grave� and “pit� were used, and “hell� is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated she´ohl´ in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated hai´des in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Ge´en·na (English, “Gehenna�) is rendered “hell� throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.

Concerning this use of “hell� to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’�

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p.28) says concerning “Hell�: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.�

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell� is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell� says: “fr[om] . helan to conceal.� The word “hell� thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes� meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The meaning given today to the word “hell� is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell� of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell� says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.� The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world .. as a place full of horrors, .presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.� Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World� as featuring “pits of fire� for “the damned.�—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E.ªWallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

“Hellfire� has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p.81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.� Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.