Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-19-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

CFI-West's 1st and 3rd Sunday Lecture Series presents

Robert Price "Sabbatai Sevi: A Seventeenth-Century Jesus"

Sunday, March 19

11 a.m. in Hollywood
4:30 p.m. in Costa Mesa

Sabbatai Sevi was a very popular messiah in the 1600s who abandoned his religion at the last minute, converting to Islam himself instead of converting the Turkish sultan to Judaism as he had boasted. Sevi’s life eerily parallels that of the crucified Jesus and the evolution of early Christianity. By examining the story of Sabbatai Sevi, much light can be shed on Jesus and the development of Western religion.

Bringing this story to light is author Robert M. Price, Professor of Biblical Criticism at the Center for Inquiry Institute and the editor of The Journal of Higher Criticism. His books include The Empty Tomb, Deconstructing Jesus, The Horrible Shrinking Son of Man, and The Da Vinci Fraud. Price is also Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies at the Johnnie Coleman Theological Seminary in Florida.

Price refers to Sabbatai Sevi in an essay here in a review of an essay by Holding:

Quote:

In the essay to be addressed here, Holding sets forth a wide-ranging version of an old argument one hears more and more these days from fundamentalist apologists: that the initial success of Christianity defies sociological common sense and demands a miraculous explanation. The sheer scope of the argument, as well as its increasingly common use in debate, make a critical review of it advisable.

Holding here attempts “to put together a comprehensive list of issues that we assert that critics must deal with in explaining why Christianity succeeded where it should have clearly failed or died out�? like many another messianic cult. For example, that of Sabbatai Sevi in the seventeenth century. Holding deems it unlikely, first of all, that Christianity could have begun with the hoodwinking of a sufficient number of gullible dupes. Imposture is no basis for a successful religion, a notion asserted as if self-evident by many apologists past and present. And yet it is easy to show how Mormonism started with a hoax, though, given the paradoxes of human psychology, we cannot for that reason dismiss Joseph Smith as not also being a sincere religious founder. But a hoax it was, and here today, look at it: it is a thriving world religion in its own right. So such things can happen. On the other hand, I believe the parallels to Sabbatai Sevi are important and show how some of the greatest challenges facing early Christianity may have been overcome, especially the crushing defeat in the wake of Messiah's death. It also illustrates the thinking that led to retrospective claims of "passion predictions" and scriptural prophecies, as well as the framing of atonement theories as after-the-fact rationales of an embarrassing death. . . .

Amaleq13 · 02-19-2006, 09:24 PM

"The Horrible Shrinking Son of Man"?

I think that might qualify as a Freudian slip.

Toto · 02-19-2006, 09:41 PM

Hm - Price has the announcement on his home page with the correct book title - http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/

I wonder how that happened?

Toto · 03-15-2006, 06:21 PM

The Title is now "A Messiah During the Time of Copernicus? Sabbatai Sevi: A Seventeenth-Century Jesus"

Toto · 03-20-2006, 06:03 PM

The lecture was entertaining, and included a brief summary of Jewish mysticism. Sabatai Sevi was a Kabbalistic master, and also what we would today call bipolar, or severely manic depressive. When he was in his manic phase, he knew that he was the Messiah. When he came down and entered his depressive phase, he couldn't figure out where those crazy ideas came from. He was identified as the Messiah by another Jewish mystic, and met some sort of need.

Price's sources were When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Leon Festinger, and Sabbatai Sevi (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Gershom Gerhard Scholem.

The point that seemed most relevant was the issue of the reaction of the movement to a stumbling block. Sabbatai Sevi attempted to convert the muslim ruler of the Ottoman Empire, but was confronted with a choice of converting himself to Islam or facing death. He chose conversion, thus becoming an apostate. This apostacy was similar to the crucifixion (if you accept the historicist account of the origins of the Christian church.) It was an embarrassment, but it was converted into a positive doctrine by the true believers. Sabbati Sevi was alleged to have taken the sins of the Jewish nation on himself and redeemed them. Price was of the opinion that this was not borrowing from Christianity, but was a parallel evolution from the same Jewish doctrines in response to the same pressures.

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02-19-2006, 09:24 PM	#2
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	"The Horrible Shrinking Son of Man"? I think that might qualify as a Freudian slip.

02-19-2006, 09:41 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hm - Price has the announcement on his home page with the correct book title - http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ I wonder how that happened?

03-15-2006, 06:21 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Title is now "A Messiah During the Time of Copernicus? Sabbatai Sevi: A Seventeenth-Century Jesus"

03-20-2006, 06:03 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The lecture was entertaining, and included a brief summary of Jewish mysticism. Sabatai Sevi was a Kabbalistic master, and also what we would today call bipolar, or severely manic depressive. When he was in his manic phase, he knew that he was the Messiah. When he came down and entered his depressive phase, he couldn't figure out where those crazy ideas came from. He was identified as the Messiah by another Jewish mystic, and met some sort of need. Price's sources were When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Leon Festinger, and Sabbatai Sevi (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Gershom Gerhard Scholem. The point that seemed most relevant was the issue of the reaction of the movement to a stumbling block. Sabbatai Sevi attempted to convert the muslim ruler of the Ottoman Empire, but was confronted with a choice of converting himself to Islam or facing death. He chose conversion, thus becoming an apostate. This apostacy was similar to the crucifixion (if you accept the historicist account of the origins of the Christian church.) It was an embarrassment, but it was converted into a positive doctrine by the true believers. Sabbati Sevi was alleged to have taken the sins of the Jewish nation on himself and redeemed them. Price was of the opinion that this was not borrowing from Christianity, but was a parallel evolution from the same Jewish doctrines in response to the same pressures.

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