Mr. Logic

The word "Gospel" in Ancient Greek means "Good News"!Does the doctrine that says "Accept Jesus or you will suffer for eternity" sound like a good news message?
After years of objective research that almost no one does, btw, I realized that Paul never seems to threaten People in his writtings like many Fundamentalists and Catholic Leaders do.
I got out my Strong's Concordance and looked up the word Hell and where and how it was used, and found out this Definitive FACT.
PAUL NEVER, BUT NEVER USED THE WORD HELL! That's right, not even once!

Unlike today's Ministers that use extortion to fill pews, Paul did not threaten People with eternal punishment or any time in hell.
Just like the only thing that he said about the Sabbath was not to let anyone judge you in it's keeping. He taught time and time that, we who are promised eternal life, don't need to follow the law of Moses. A changed heart, doesn't need to be threatened with punishment to do right.

The law is layed down to a Disobedient Child not someone like Abraham.
Those coming out of Egypt were nothing like their Father Abe.
Thus the diff. in the way that God communicated to them.

The N.T. talks of the law of Christ vs. the Law of Moses. Yet almost every Minister on the Planet ignores this fact.
What is the wages of sin? Is it not death?
Yes, I know what Jesus said. I also know that at that time he also said "Keep the Law of Moses" He was talking to Jews under the law, at that time, not the Church under grace, and by the way most of the hell stuff then was directed at the Leaders! Judas, according to Jesus would receive the worst punishment, not Pilot. Those who claim to be Leaders in Christ had better be very careful about what they teach. So far they haven't been.
All my research is done objectively, without bias or ego! The harmony is the way to know what was truly said, and hell is not good news to anyone who is honest.
Thanks for your time

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

So where do all the bad people go? Does this mean there is no heaven either?

yummyfur

Actually 1 Corinthians 15:55 does, in many of the manuscripts.

"O Death where is your sting, O Hades where is your victory"

The other main variant is

"O Death where is your victory, O Death where is your sting"

One can certainly argue about what the writer intended here, but one can't say for certain he never used a word that is equivalent to the English Hell.

Mr. Logic

[B][SIZE="2"]It's nice to see that someone has done their homework. You sound like a diligent student of the Word.
I think that you are actually helping prove my point, however. Why would Paul only mention it once if at all, if his goal was to save People from it, as Modern day Preachers do?
Notice that your response wasn't that he talked about it constantly. Your admitting that this isn't the case, comes from someone trying to push the idea of punishment in hell.
Point two: I am not trying to say that all People are going to wing their way to heaven. I am not a right and left thinker. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, and scripture is written about the truth.



The word Hades is used in the Greek Old Testament to translate the Hebrew word sheol, denoting a dark region of the dead. Tartarus, is also a word used in scripture. Hates could simply mean the grave, for this is where dead bodies normally go.

According to the N.T. Hell was created for Satan and his Angels.
These beings whoever they are, know exactly what they are doing. Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do", right? So when did he change his mind and decide to cast all that didn't accept him into eternal punishment? Hell is not used for extortiion purposes, and is a temporarty abode of the dead. THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, not eternal punishment.

I am not trying to defend anything here, except point out that extorition isn't the method used by Paul to gain converts. The RCC did this on their own years later. Thanks

Mr. Logic

Good question: Heaven isn't a place like Chicago is a place, or Earth is a place. Heaven is wherever God is. That is why Moses had to take off his sandles. He was on Holy Ground.

Riverwind

I don't personally know, as I haven't been there yet and hope I never go there.

However, perhaps it is because it is the good news that Jesus has come to provide us a way to God rather than to condemn us to hell. I would say that is the good part of the message.

With respect to Hell, it is a confusing subject that would make an interesting topic for discussion. I've always wanted to read more about this subject and just haven't found the time. Hell translates various words throughout the Old and New Testaments.

Either way, even if Paul doesn't mention "Hell" directly, he seems know know of a fiery punishment for those disobedient to God:

Likewise, Luke (Paul's companion) also makes several metaphorical mentions of the fire that will consume the evil.

I think a fiery punishment is definitely mentioned in the Bible for those who disobey or deny God, but it is difficult to tell if it is meant more as metaphor than reality.

Personally, though I don't like the idea of Hell (who does?), if there is no punishment for those who are evil, then it seems there is no justice and no impetus for being good here on earth.

yummyfur

Actually my main point was that "Paul" does use the word probably once, so saying he doesn't use it is incorrect. Especially since this usage is the main variant and used in many translations.

I Probably wouldn't even have responded if you hadn't made your claim so strongly.

Also I think your ignoring Romans chapter 2

"But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and extreme affliction for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."

It's pretty clear here that there is some kind of terrible punishment. I have my own interpretation of what "Paul" meant but it would not fit with standard Christianity.

Roland

Didn't the concept of hell pretty much come from the Zoroastrians when Persia conquered Babylon and freed the Jewish captives?

Isn't it after that point that the ideas of heaven and hell began to seep into Jewish documents, most of which were written AFTER the time of the Old Testament writings, so that by the time the New Testament was written, heaven and hell had become familiar concepts to the Jews?

Am I off base on this one?

Joan of Bark

You mean they didn't pimp their wives to curry favour with those in power?

Odd, since if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, he would never have been executed and the resurrection could not have occured, leaving Jesus to be quickly forgotten, like so many other prophets in his time. I should think that Christians would be thankful to Judas for setting these chain of events in motion.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

That still doesn't answer where bad people go since, technically God is supposed to be everywhere. Unless you are cryptically saying Chicago is hell.

Moses didn't have to take his sandals off because it was Holy Ground, he could take them off because it was Holy Ground, nothing could defile Moses around there. It's like in Japan, you take your shoes off at the front door, not because they are afraid you'll get the floor dirty, but because they want to welcome you into their home and relax.


As far as Paul not preaching about hell, well you don't even have to use your brain for that one!

He was after converts. Trust me he wouldn't be telling people right off the bat that they would be going to hell, you don't gain converts by yelling and preaching at non-believers that they are going to hell, they'll just laugh at you and think you are crazy or been self indulging a little too much, or in somme cases, haven't self indulge quite yet. Note* it is usually after a preacher has a few sips of wine during church that he finally calms down tells everyone peace, everyone hugs, kiss and shake hands, until next week of course!

Once you have them indoctrinated or if their little kids is when the fire and brimstone threats start! It scares the bejebus out of them or makes them feel good, thinking that, that smartalec, Mr. KnowItAll atheist is gonna get theirs!

Paul, I'm sure at least told a few people to go to hell, but they didn't report it. Hell I'll bet in a hundred years or so Falwell will be remembered only for the good things he said and did, they will have to make stuff up about him too.