sotto voce

Can we start a sensible discussion? How is it known that the artists (or whatever) are Christians?

Sheshbazzar

But don'cha know they wuz all dood by Buddhist monks, elves or leprechauns in the night?

Duvduv

And let's add to all this the fact that "Justin" cannot name a SINGLE one of the apostles who had memoirs, and only mentions "John" briefly. He cannot mention anything about Peter, about "apostolic succession" either. The simple reason is that these things had not even yet emerged.

Huon

"Justin does not name ..." could be a fact.
"Justin cannot name ..." is only your own opinion.

Duvduv

OK, the guy has been dead for 2000 years so it doesn't make a difference. In any event the "Christian" writer of the Apology was writing before the Christian doctrines and dogmas had emerged and crystallized and therefore he doesn't show consistency or clarity that one would expect an advocate to express on behalf of a mature religion to government officials. And of course there is no evidence that this was a real letter sent to the emperor or that anyone received it or responded to it or even read it. Not in the 2nd century and not in the 4th century.

And yet we are supposed to believe that there was a relatively mature religion based on the canonical texts just a few decades later, and that the canonical texts already existed in the 2nd century.

Both HJ Christianity and Mythism depend on this hypothesis in relation to either the gospels or the epistles or both.

However, the salient points to summarize are:

a) The author of the Apology does not name a single apostle who was the "author" of the memoirs of the apostles, and says nothing about apostolic traditions.

b) The author of the Apology says nothing about his colleagues, predecessors, leaders or communities.

c) The author mentions Marcion briefly, who supposedly also lived in Rome in the mid 2nd century, but does not mention even a single text or statement in the name of Marcion. This includes the name or writings of someone named Paul, who it is claimed was known to Marcion.

d) The author of the Apology does not mention the name of the Old Man who told him about Jesus, where the Old Man was from, how the Old Man knew about Jesus.

e) When appealing to legitimize the existence of a historical Jesus 150 years before him, the author called Justin incessantly quotes citations from the Tanakh as "evidence." But never any stories of the apostles or his precedessors.

If this Apology was written in the second century, I am a monkey's uncle. And we can add Irenaeus and Tertullian to the mix, about both of whom there is likewise next to no information.

Atheos

Why would this matter? The discussion is not about whether or not christian graffiti is produced by christians, it's why there is such a dearth of christian graffiti during a given time period where one might expect there to be some if there was a significant sub-culture composed of that group.

It was you who argued that the reason we don't have evidence of graffiti using christian messages/imagery from that time period is the same reason no such evidence exists today. Your argument has been demolished by actual evidence. You're not obliged to post a sporting concession, but it's a bit lame to imply that one who contradicts your argument with actual evidence isn't being sensible.

sotto voce

Quite. But if Christians don't do graffiti, it's a bit of a daft question, isn't it. To say the least of it.

Not so fast. Not before you or someone has demonstrated that the graffiti shown is the work of Christians. So there is much work to do. Because nobody has ever, in 2000 years, proved that anyone is or was a Christian!

But, tell you what, I'll be generous. I'll let you email all the institutions claiming to be Christian in your picturesque area, asking them re their attitude to criminal defacement aka graffiti; a misdemeanour, if not a felony, in most legislations. Let us know what they say.

Toto

And while you're about it, ask if they approve of the sexual abuse of children. That should prove it never happened. :Cheeky::constern02:

Atheos

Are you seriously that incapable of seeing how far off the point you are?

The argument isn't about the inclinations/beliefs/motivations of people who produce graffiti that includes christian imagery or messages.

It's about whether or not such graffiti exists at all.

No examples of it can be found dating to the time period in question.

Numerous examples of it can be found dating to modern times.

You're just trying to move the goalposts. Weak.

sotto voce

Well done, Toto. I have a small job for you, too. You are to email all the non-Catholic institutions claiming to be Christian in your area, asking them what happens to members who are convicted of child abuse; or what would happen to them. Let us know how you get on.