Sheshbazzar

No wager involved, lux places great value on life, yet believes it is limited to those few short years that are alloted to us in this present life, whereas my position is that I, lux, and you will die as others have before us, and sleep in the earth, until a Day when we all shall awaken from that sleep, and every man then will be held accountable for the deeds wrought in the flesh.
I fully expect all of you atheists to arrive at that same place along with me.
A word popularly used on these forums to avoid dealing with any truth or observation that might interfere with a priori views.

Toto

The dialogue on MonoYahwistic has been moved here

Joan of Bark

Of course, I don't know you, Shes, but when believers use this argument on me, I suspect they have invented an afterlife for themselves because they are afraid of death. I have no problem accepting my mortality, and in this instance I have something in common with the Israelites, who also didn't believe in life after death. Maybe God hadn't got around to creating heaven at that point?

Sheshbazzar

This is a matter that has been long, and much discussed amongst believers, And while there is no way that I can offer the viewpoint of each individual as to their personal level of the fear of dying, my conversations with my fellow believers do reveal that we share in common a hope that 'death' is only a temporary state.
As far as devout believers "being afraid of death", history is filled with the examples of believers who have willingly surrendered their lives rather than abandon their faith, compromise a principal, or submit to tyranny, whom when even a single word of assent or of surrender would have 'saved' them from certain death, they held fast, dying for their beliefs.
You say that you, "have something in common with the Israelites, who also didn't believe in life after death." Searching the Scriptures, I cannot but agree; You DO have something in common with the Israelites, who also didn't believe in life after death, those unbelieving, rebellious, and gainsaying Israelites, who ever refused to hear that word of life.
Now don't misunderstand, I am not saying this as any form of insult, but rather pointing out, that from the beginning there has been a division in mankind, them who held onto a promise, and believed and hoped onto the end, And those who did not believe in the promises, nor believe, nor hold fast unto the hope of life.
So we are all given the stories of the "Israelites" that they might serve as examples unto us, and that we may read about the "faithful" and the "unfaithful", about them that believed, and them that did not believe.
If I understand your position correctly here, you are saying that it is your belief that the "faithful" Israelites of the so-called "Old-Testament" did not believe in life after death? and held no such hope?
Allow me then to present you with a few of the verses that indicate otherwise.

"And Abraham said unto Elohim, O that Ishmael might LIVE before Thee!" Gen. 17:18

"And this is the blessing..... Let Reuben LIVE, and not die;" Deut. 33:6

"You shall therefore keep My statutes and judgments: which if a man do, he shall LIVE in them; I am YHWH" Lev.18:5, (Neh. 9:29, Eze.20:11-21, Gal. 3:6-12)

"Let my master king David LIVE for ever." 1Ki. 1:31

"And I said unto the king, let the king LIVE for ever:" Neh. 2:3

"Man that is born of woman is of few days, and full of trouble....................
Seeing his days are determined, and the number of his months are with You, You have appointed him bounds that he cannot pass;
Turn from him, that he may rest till he shall accomplish, as a hireling, his day.
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;..........................
So man lies down, and rises not: till the heaven be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that You would hide me in the grave, that You would keep me hidden, until Your wrath be past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he LIVE again?
all the days of my appointed time, I will wait until my change come.
You shall call, and I will answer You, You will value the work of your hands."
Job 14:1-15

""The meek shall eat and be satisfied:they shall praise YHWH that seek Him: your heart shall LIVE for ever." Psalm 22:26

"Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; but the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave of their dwelling. But Elohim will redeem my soul from the power of the grave; for He shall receive me." Psalm 49:14-15

"I shall not die, but LIVE and declare the works of Yah." Psalm 118:17

"give me understanding and I shall LIVE" Psalm 119:144

"Your dead shall LIVE My dead bodies shall rise again. Awake and sing, you that dwell in the dust: for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead". Isa. 26:19

"Incline your ear, and come unto Me: Hear, and your soul shall LIVE; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." Isa. 55:3

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says Yah-YHWH: wherefore turn others, and you shall LIVE. Ez. 18:32 (33:11)

"And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to LIFE everlasting, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:1-2

"For thus says YHWH unto the house of Israel, Seek ye Me, and you [I]shall LIVE Am. 5:4, 6, 14

Now these are but a few of the verses that indicate that at least a portion of the Israelites had a concept of an "afterlife", or rather the hope of an
"eternal life", "LIFE ever lasting", that from the leaving of this life they would "sleep" until a day of awakening, when all wrongs would be righted, and justice finally triumph over all those injustices under which they suffered in this life.
Many of the stories contained within the TaNaKa are built around the concept that there would be an afterlife and a Day of reckoning.
You ask, "Maybe God hadn't got around to creating heaven at that point?"
Are you unaware of Genesis 1:1? and of in how many times and places "heaven" is mentioned within the texts of the Scriptures?
If "g-d"- hadn't got around to creating heaven at that point, then at the least, these Israelites of whom you are writing certainly HAD.
So the concept of "heaven", and going to heaven, was not alien to them, (or to their contemporaries of other religions and nations) as your question incorrectly implies.

Sheshbazzar

Returning to the subject of this thread;
A simple Internet "SEARCH" will show that the consensus of all animal lovers, and of the "believers" is a quite resounding; YES!
I won't even attempt to provide documentation of the evidence of this here, anyone interested may prove the matter for themselves.
My position founded and grounded in what the Scriptures teach, is that as by the trespass of the first Adam death came upon all flesh, by the obedience of the Son of Man, the second Adam, All flesh shall be made alive, and therefor there shall be animals brought back to life and received into "heaven".
And along that line, and as many believers bear witness, the same Elohim who has shown mercy unto them, to heal their diseases and infirmities, has from time to time shown the same measure of mercy upon their livestock, and upon their pets.
How often the vet's say; "It will take a miracle" or "It is now in G-d's hands", and when the beast does recover, Well, then it must have been the "miracle" of modern science, or the medicine, or of the vet's skill.
But the believer will hold fast the saying; "YHWH gives, and YHWH takes away, blessed be the name YHWH, from this time forth and for ever more", And give YHWH the honor, and the praise. (not omitting to both thank and pay His servant who labored on His behalf)

Joan of Bark

Sorry Shes, but I'm still not buying it. Many experts (which I admit I cannot document here, for I'm stuck in a foreign town without my English language texts) in theology believe that the concept of an afterlife came, at the very least, after the Torah. The passages you quoted can easily be interpreted as referring to life before death. Remember that the Torah cannot always be taken literally; it is subject to interpretation, which is why even orthodox Jews argue over what a passage means.

Sheshbazzar

Of my above given quotations, only the first three were drawn from the Torah, all of the rest came from the 'NaKa (Prophets and Writings)
A couple of additional observations are due here, first, in the above post there was no inherent limit to 'ONLY' the contents of the Torah.
In fact the word "Torah" does not even appear, and the references I specifically made were to the to the and to (And "The Old Testament" or "Scriptures" as the terms are used and understood in the English language have always encompassed the entire collection of books from Genesis to Malachi.)
All of these are of "Israelite" provenance, or if as is alleged, drawn from earlier sources, accepted and incorporated by Israelite's into Israel's Holy Books.
Psalms in particular are inseparable from the The Torah, as many had their inception in the Torah narratives, employ identical wording, and must be considered to be as "Israelite" as any portion of the Torah.
And again, the "Jewish" people have always considered themselves the descendent's of the Israelites, preserving Israel's Hebrew religion and culture, this also is the belief of Christianity, of Islam, and of almost all scholarship. This belief was so strong that it led to the formation of that modern nation called "Israel".
Even if the "belief in the afterlife" did come after The Torah, (which based upon the themes of many of the Torah's narratives, I do not believe to be the case) it would still have been the belief current with the people called "Israelites".
They did not stop being "Israel" or "Israelites" on the day they crossed over the Jordan. (Josh. 3:17) and the books succeeding the Torah are the accounts of what these Israelites did, and what they believed. These "books" are the "Prophets and Writings" and are inseparable from the religion of Israel, and the beliefs and culture of the Israelite people.
And were all written for our edification. (Romans 15:4)
And while "Torah" may be subject to a measure of interpretation, not even Orthodox Jews would support the contention that the Scriptures (ALL of them) do not teach of "heaven(s)" and an "afterlife".
Along this line, is the Torah's story of Enoch, and what became of him.