Achwienichtig

Debate Topic: Did Jesus' Second Coming Prophecies Fail?

ShockofAtheism will argue the affirmative; Thief of fire will argue the negative.

The scope of the debate will be limited to a study of Biblical and early Christian texts and exegeses. The question orients around whether Jesus is a false prophet for making a prophesy about his second coming which did not come true when he said it would.

There will be five rounds. The first round will consist of a 500 max word introduction. All other rounds will be 5000 words max. Statements will alternate with ShockofAtheism posting first.

There will be a one week maximum time between posts.

The Peanut Gallery is found here.

DoubtingDave

I wish to thank FRDB for setting up the platform to debate and would like to thank thief_of_fire for agreeing to debate this topic. We are debating whether or not Jesus' prophecy failed.


Opening arguments begin in the next round, though I believe it is necessary to give a brief introduction of what my basic arguments will be.

thief of fire

Ok , firstly thanks to the mods for setting this up and then to my opponent as well.
I will also give a brief outline of my intended arguments.
Firstly I would like to say that I agree that Jesus said he would "return" or that the "son of man" whom Jesus identified with himself, would "come on clouds" during that generation.
I will argue that this prediction and the other predictions in Matthew 24, mark 13 and Luke 21 all came to pass in the first century.
These things include other messianic claimants arising, Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, a desolation, many many people killed , the temple destroyed with even the stones prised apart, the gospel preached to the world and finally the coming of the son of man on the clouds of heaven.

DoubtingDave

Hello,

I would like to once again thank thief_of_fire for agreeing to participate in this debate and the moderator for the moderation. I already provided opening statements, so no need for that. I’ll dive right into my opening arguments.

Note: I had to do a lot of cutting for verses in order to stay under the word limit of 5000 words. Please forgive me.

Reminder: I am arguing two things: (1) Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of his disciples; and (2) That prediction failed.

I. What Jesus Said

(Matthew 24:1-2 ESV)
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
It continues in 29-31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here, we see several things that will happen:

1. The sun will be darkened;
2. The moon will not give its light
3. The stars will fall from heaven;
4. The powers of the heaven will be shaken;
5. The sign of the Son of Man (Jesus) will appear;
6. The tribes of the earth will mourn;
7. The Son of Man (Jesus) will return with great power and glory;
8. He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call; and
9. The elect will be gathered from the four winds and from he ends of the heavens (i.e., the rapture/return of Jesus).
Jesus continues with the parable of the fig tree in 32-35:
“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Here, Jesus makes his promise: THIS generation will NOT pass away until these things take place. What things? The 9 things he discussed in the previous verses. It is those that the disciples expected to take place within their lifetime and within their generation. It may be interesting to note several different translations of vs. 45:
1. I tell you: THE PRESENT generation will live to SEE IT ALL (The New English Bible)
2. I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens. (Holy Bible: Contemporary English Version)
In light of these translations, it is confirmed that Jesus is talking about the PRESENT generation—not some generation far off in the future.
As a side bar note, some apologists maintain that Jesus is talking about the destruction of the second temple in 70 C.E.; however, as the Scofield Bible notes:
“Jesus could not have been talking about the destruction of the second temple as none of THESE THINGS occurred.”
So, how long was a generation? As a general rule, a generation was about 40 years in length.
II. How Jesus’ Disciple’s Interpreted Matthew 24
We should look into how they understood Matt.24 to be talking about in order to see if they can shed light and see if Jesus’ prophecy failed.
A. The Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation is the final book in the Bible, and undoubtedly, the most vague. It is full of awesome events that will happen in the final days; however, a quick look at the context reveals that they are to be in the lifetime of his followers. Let’s take a closer look.


A. WHO WAS IT WRITTEN TO?
In order to understand the context of any verse, we need to know WHO it was written to. Let’s examine the Book of Revelation and see who John was writing to.
Rev 1:4 "John to the seven churches that are in Asia"
Rev 1:10-11 "I (John the Apostle) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

1. Rev 2:1 "to the church in Ephesus"
2. Rev 2:8 "to the church in Smyrna"
3. Rev 2:12 "to the church in Pergamum"
4. Rev 2:18 "to the church in Thyatira"
5. Rev 3:1 "to the church in Sardis"
6. Rev 3:7 "to the church in Philadelphia"
7. Rev 3:14 "to the church in Laodicea"

So, John was writing to churches that are in his area; in other words, he was writing to Christians living in his own time. So, to summarize:
1. John specifically wrote the book of Revelation to 7 churches.
2. These 7 churches were located in the province of Asia.
3. These 7 churches located 7 different cities.
4. These 7 churches are listed in two different places in Revelation.
So we can now count 3 facts:
1. God tells us when these prophecies will be fulfilled;
2. Twice in the first chapter;
3. Twice in the last
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw." Rev 1:1
"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." Rev 1:3
"And he (the angel) said to me (John), "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place." Rev 22:6
Daniel 8:26 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."
Daniel 12:4, “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time.”
So in these verses, we learn three things:
1. Daniel was a prophet who wrote about 600 BCE (general traditional date);
2. The angel told Daniel to “seal up” the prophecy;
3. Yet, Christians believe these were fulfilled 600 years later in the personhood of Jesus Christ.
Let’s see what John said in Rev. 22:10:
And he (the angel) said to me (John), “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”
Compare:

Daniel said in 600 BC John said in 96 AD
Seal up the prophecy do not seal up prophecy
Jesus fulfilled 600 years later Still not fulfilled 1900 years later?
Is this interpretation really reasonable?

SUMMARY
1. Jesus gives a list of prophecies that will occur within the lifetime of his followers;
2. None of them happened;
3. John, a disciple of Jesus, understood Jesus to be coming in his life time.
Thank you.

(note: For better format, please view the PDF available here: http://challengingreligion.drupalgar...he-will-return )

DoubtingDave

1. Scofield, C. I., and Henry G. Weston. The Holy Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments, Authorized Version.
London: Oxford UP, 1917. Print. From the notes on Matthew 24

2. Future Survival, Chuck Smith, The Word for Today, Costa Mesa, CA 1978, page 17 quoted http://jcnot4me.com/page27.html

3. Chart from http://www.bible.ca/rev2210.htm#correct

thief of fire

Thanks again to SoA and the Mods

As mentioned I will have to agree with SoA, as the evidcne is overwhelming that the jesus of the gospels indicates he was to return or come in glory back in the 1st CE.

I too will basically look at Matthew 24

This portion of Matthew starts with the disciples pointing out the temple and jesus tells them it will be totally destoyed. The destruction some 40 years later was well documented by Josephus in his work Wars of the Jews

Matthew then has his followers asking him when he will come.

Matthew has Jesus telling them quite a few things will happen first, some of which are a bit vague, some of which Josephus records as happening.
Quite a other messiah type figures arise with various followings. (1)

Jerusalem will be utterly destroyed (Luke has Jesus saying it will first be surrounded by armies.), and a great period of trouble will befall the jews. Josephus records such things.
Titus, he tells us ordered, "the whole city and the temple to be razed to the ground, leaving only the loftiest of the towers, Phasael, Hippicus, and Miramme, and the portion of the wall enclosing the city on the west . . . All the rest of the wall encompassing the city was so completely leveled to the ground as to leave future visitors to the spot no ground for believing that it had ever been inhabited." (2)

josephus also comments on the degree of this trouble.
"Accordingly, it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews (3) are not so considerable as they were;" (3)

If Jesus really said these things around 30 CE then so far he has a pretty good record, but it what follows that is the real point.

These words are very similar and possibly a reference to the book of Isaiah Chapt 13

See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger —
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

I would argue that none of these things are literal, but rather poetic. the heavens dont tremble the earth doesn't shake, the sky isn't darkened.


I can't say I know what that was supposed to mean


Again I dont know what this was meant to mean. It was said to occur in heaven so possibly some astronomical phenomenon?


Again this is bit vague.

Ok this bit is interesting and I'll quote it from Matthew
.
they (the tribes of the earth) see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
In ANE east writings the connection between clouds and heaven (and therefore power) is ubiquitous in near-eastern mythology.
Baal was said to be a rider of the clouds, yahweh too in the hebrew bible was said to come ona cloud.

Isaiah 19

A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

In Daniel we see a change where "one like ason of man" comes on clouds.
Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in matthew seems to be combining all these themes. He sees himself "coming on clouds" like Daniel but rather than going to the "ancient of days" he will be seen by the tribes of the earth, and unlike in daniel but like the hebrews prophets writings this coming on clouds is associated with a great calamity that befalls, in this case, Jerusalem.


Im not sure what angels blowing trumpets would look like, but I dont think it would be a visible event and

The "rapture" a la the "left behind" series is the invention of modern christians and not found in matthew or any of the gospels or early writings.



Yes, again I would agree with this reading.

So what we have is a prediction of some kind of calamtous episode that will befall the jews where their temple is utterly destroyed and the situtaion is so extreme that if anyone was left in the city they would very likely be killed.
At one point Josephus reckons they were crucifying 500 jews every day.

(4)


These calamatous events would be a sign that jesus would be coming on clouds with power like some kind of divine apocalyptic messenger.
Now as jesus never claimed to be physically returning, but only coming on clouds of glory we would not, I would say, expect him to be visibly seen.
What would be expected to be seen was some kind of military destruction of Jerusalem.
In other words Matthew and the other synoptics have jesus saying that the evidence of his "coming" was the destruction of Jerusalem.
This is not proof that he did come, but it makes him a pretty good prophet if he did say these things in 30 CE.

I have no argument with the case you make about the book of revelation.

(1)http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants00.html
(2)Wars of the Jews 6:1,3
(3)http://doig.net/JWP.html
(4)Wars of the Jews

Achwienichtig

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DoubtingDave

Sorry, my response should be up tomorrow.

Achwienichtig

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