Madkins007

I am looking for some solid examples of errancy in the Bible for a hypothesis of mine.

First, about me: I am a 'rational fundamentalist with preterist leanings'. I do not knee-jerk believe in Biblical inerrancy or divine inspiration, or in most of the teachings of the churches today. I TRY to see what the Bible says for itself, and use that as a foundation.

Second, what am I looking for. My current search is a basic question: "Is there an example of God speaking to someone, or of someone directly quoting God, in which God can be shown to be in substantial error?"

I AM NOT looking for superficial contradictions, problems with eyewitness accounts, things that could reasonably be misquotes or mistranslations, 'straining at gnats', etc., but solid 'god shoulda known better than this' stuff.

And please, lets let the poor rabbit 'chew its cud' for this particular conversation, OK? That IS the sort of thing I am looking for, but this is not a very convincing example. Ditto for the proverbial 4-legged locust. (I'll discuss what I don't like these as examples one way or the other if you want, but I'd rather hold off on that for a bit.)

What is my goal? I am wondering about infallability. Obviously, 'infallability' does not extend to translations or printings- we have many examples of errors in that area. I am also not sure it is fair or appropriate to extend 'infallability, a godly attribute, to what people wrote of what they and others did, said, or thought. How would 'infallability' work if the author correctly recorded another person's inaccurate ideas, such as Jacob wrestling God. IF Jacob did not wrestle God, but thought he did, what is the 'infallability rating' of the passage if the author records Jacobs's 'I wrestled God' statement?

OK, so how about just keeping it simple- maybe only 'directly inspired' parts of the Bible are infallible?

Sure, I cold ask this at a believer's site, but they would stone me as well. At least here, I know I'll get good answers and discussion!

missus_gumby

Well, if one believed that the biblical jesus character were god, John 7:38 shows him to quote non-existent scripture.

Is that the sort of thing you are looking for?

Missus Gumby

Madkins007

(Passage in question: "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " NASB)

This referenced verse does not appear verbatim in the OT, but commentaries point out things like "These words belong to what follows, "Out of his belly, as the scripture hath said, shall flow," &c. referring not to any particular passage, but to such as Isaiah 58:11, Joel 3:18, Zechariah 14:8, Ezekiel 47:1-12; in most of which the idea is that of waters issuing from beneath the temple, to which our Lord compares Himself and those who believe in Him." (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown- Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible)

This seems to be a reasonable possibility as Jesus did not say anything like 'To quote Isaiah'. I am hoping for something a bit less ambiguous.

AND I was sorta hoping to avoid using Jesus as the main speaker (the 'Jesus as God' issue is another I am working on). I probably should have mentioned that, though, in my earlier remarks!

BUT Thanks for your quick reply!

Goliath

A verse in 1 Kings (I think) describes a pool whose circumference is three times its diameter. However, pi does not equal 3. This is an indisputable contradiction.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Vinnie

http://www.after-hourz.net/ri/errancydebate1.html

This was the first installment of my ongoing errancy debate here with RobertLW in formal debate area.

How do you distinguish between when God speaks and other passages? What model of inspiration is this?

Vinnie

Steven Carr

There is always John 7:38 where Jesus quotes something that is not in the Old Testament.

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.

Of course, you came up with the excuse that Jesus did NOT say, 'as the Scripture has said', which leads me to think that you are not as rational as you think you are.

Your words were 'This seems to be a reasonable possibility as Jesus did not say anything like 'To quote Isaiah'.

'As the Scripture has said', is very close to Jesus saying that there is a verbatim quote, but Bible-deniers often refuse to accept what the Bible says.


There is talk of a flood in the Old Testament. Isn't that an error?

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

There was no such distress in the 1st century - a distress unequalled from the beginning of the world until then, and never to be equalled again.
Matthew 24:31 'And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.'

That never happened in the lifetime of the listeners of Jesus. Nothing ever happened which would make people think 'That is what Jesus meant by sending angels or 'messengers' with a loud trumpet call.'




Matthew 25 '"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And that never happened either. When the Son of Man came in his glory (on the preterist timetable), the nations were not gathered.

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."

And Jesus never arrived soon, so that all could see him arrive.

But Bible-deniers , I'm sure, will deny that the Bible says any of these things.......

Steven Carr

Isaiah 58:11 ' The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.'


Gosh, this has got the word 'waters' in it, so clearly this is an exact match to Jesus saying 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'

Joel 3:18 "In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the LORD's house
and will water the valley of acacias.'

This has also got 'water' in it, so clearly this is an exact match to Jesus saying 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'

The fact that it talks about Judah , not a person, and the Temple, and not a person is irrelevant to Bible-deniers. It has the word 'water' in it, so the Bible is inerrant.

Zech 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

This has got 'living water' in it, so clearly this is an exact match to Jesus saying 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'

The fact that it talks about Jerusalem , not a person, is irrelevant to Bible-deniers. It has the words 'living water' in it, so the Bible is inerrant.

Ezekiel 47:1-12 The man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east).

Lord be praised! This has got 'water' in it, so clearly this is an exact match to Jesus saying 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'

Again, it talks about the Temple, not a person, but this is irrelevant to Bible-deniers, who strip everything out of context, to deny that the Bible makes any claim to mean what it says.

GakuseiDon

Try Theology Web. They have a wide range of people, from inerrantists, to liberal theists, to atheists.

I can sympathesize with you. I only became a theist a few years ago. Even then, I thought the Bible had all these contradictions. When I started looking into it for myself, I was shocked to find that this wasn't the case. There are errors, but far fewer than I ever thought. There are a lot that fall into a gray area, though. But some that are usually considered errors are plain ridiculous, like the "4 footed insects", the "bat is a bird", etc.

One contradiction I find convincing is the number of times the rooster crows before Peter denies Jesus 3 times. In one gospel, it is once, in the other, twice. I can't see any way that both can be true.

Norseman

If you like that one, try Genesis, it says Noah put 2 of each animal in the ark right? Well it also says Noah put 7 of each animal in the ark. How's that for weird?

Steven Carr

The methods used by inerrantists are so forgiving that they can be applied to any text to show that there is no errors.

JP Holding recognises this in his 'Mormon contradictions' article at
http://www.tektonics.org/mormcont.html where he writes 'We should take caution in approaching difficulties in the Mormon texts, lest we undercut our own efforts.'

Previously he had written 'Craig Blomberg pointed out in How Wide the Divide that certain BoM discrepancies do admit to solutions not unlike those used by Evangelicals.'

Holding knows that Mormons can, and do, use the same out-of-context quoting, false analogies and dubious logic that Biblical inerrantists do, and that by highlighting how Christians approach approach difficulties in Mormon texts, even Holding's gullible readers might one day wonder why these approaches cannot be applied to the Bible.