Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 10:56 AM

We find that accounts of the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia rely on writings of one Bar Hebraeus and accounts in a 10th or 11th encylopedia called Suda, which quotes a historian named Procopius from the 6th century who stated that the Persian king Yazdegerd I legalized the Christian religion in Mesopotamia at the end of the 4th century (which was then revoked by a subsequent ruler).

However, we do not find any description of where Christians in Mesopotamia (especially in the major city of Ctesiphon) actually came from or were they were located based on some traditional chronology, i.e. between the 1st and 4th centuries.

In the description attributed to Bar Hebraeus or some other unidentified source, the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc.

At the beginning of the 5th century a synod in the city of Ctesiphon accepted the Nicene Creed. Around the same time the Talmud was being redacted by Rav Ashi who lived in the Jewish community in Ctesiphon and who had a good relationship with the king and officialdom (which is discussed in the Talmud itself). Yet despite references to the Zoroastrians for some reason there is no reference to Christians in that time when the diocese in Ctesiphon had just ostensibly established according to Procopius etc., presumably for a significantly large "Christian" community, about whose origins virtually nothing is described or claimed to be known.

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 11:02 AM

Mountainman 2

One of the oldest documents we have from Semitic Christianity is/are the Acts of Judas (called 'the twin'). Please tell me why a fourth century forger would want to make a tradition about Judas - someone who is usually disliked by Christians. Whether or not this is 'Judas Iscariot' (I think it is) the idea of venerating an apostle named Judas seems strange, doesn't it? They could have taken any number of 'invented' names. Why this one?

And please don't resurrect your brother's tired old argument about 'parody' and the like.

sotto voce · 01-11-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find that accounts of the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia rely on writings of one Bar Hebraeus and accounts in a 10th or 11th encylopedia called Suda, which quotes a historian named Procopius from the 6th century who stated that the Persian king Yazdegerd I legalized the Christian religion in Mesopotamia at the end of the 4th century (which was then revoked by a subsequent ruler).

However, we do not find any description of where Christians in Mesopotamia (especially in the major city of Ctesiphon) actually came from or were they were located based on some traditional chronology, i.e. between the 1st and 4th centuries.

In the description attributed to Bar Hebraeus or some other unidentified source, the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc.

At the beginning of the 5th century a synod in the city of Ctesiphon accepted the Nicene Creed. Around the same time the Talmud was being redacted by Rav Ashi who lived in the Jewish community in Ctesiphon and who had a good relationship with the king and officialdom (which is discussed in the Talmud itself). Yet despite references to the Zoroastrians for some reason there is no reference to Christians in that time when the diocese in Ctesiphon had just ostensibly established according to Procopius etc., presumably for a significantly large "Christian" community, about whose origins virtually nothing is described or claimed to be known.

Christians terrify.

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 11:29 AM

Maybe you don't like the idea of mockery or parody, but perhaps venerating Judas was their idea of running Pat Paulsen or Harold Stassen for President........

But why would you introduce this into this new thread?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Mountainman 2

One of the oldest documents we have from Semitic Christianity is/are the Acts of Judas (called 'the twin'). Please tell me why a fourth century forger would want to make a tradition about Judas - someone who is usually disliked by Christians. Whether or not this is 'Judas Iscariot' (I think it is) the idea of venerating an apostle named Judas seems strange, doesn't it? They could have taken any number of 'invented' names. Why this one?

And please don't resurrect your brother's tired old argument about 'parody' and the like.

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 11:49 AM

If read the Acts of Judas Thomas, you will see a very different kind of Christianity displayed than what you see in the traditional 'Western' Church. I am assuming you doubt the traditional dating of the Acts of Judas Thomas (late second/early third century). I don't see how anyone can doubt that dating. I might even think it is earlier than that. But the general tone of the text is gnostic(al). I don't see any logic reason for falsely manufacturing this narrative which starts with Judas being 'sold' in slavery only to be redeemed.

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 12:16 PM

I guess that would still assume the existence of such sects who had accepted either the orthodox canon plus some additional material or at least the entire basic underlying storyline of the canon. But this need not necessarily be the case, and they could have been engaging in mockery of the storyline using gnostic ideas or perhaps dressing their gnostic ideas using the orthodox storyline as a cover.
But I still don't see the connection to this thread.

Can we get back to the thread subject?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If read the Acts of Judas Thomas, you will see a very different kind of Christianity displayed than what you see in the traditional 'Western' Church. I am assuming you doubt the traditional dating of the Acts of Judas Thomas (late second/early third century). I don't see how anyone can doubt that dating. I might even think it is earlier than that. But the general tone of the text is gnostic(al). I don't see any logic reason for falsely manufacturing this narrative which starts with Judas being 'sold' in slavery only to be redeemed.

tanya · 01-11-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't see how anyone can doubt that dating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Catholic Encyclopedia

The principal document concerning him is the "Acta Thomae", preserved to us with some variations both in Greek and in Syriac, and bearing unmistakeable signs of its Gnostic origin. It may indeed be the work of Bardesanes himself. The story in many of its particulars is utterly extravagant, but it is the early date, being assigned by Harnack (Chronologie, ii, 172) to the beginning of the third century, before A.D. 220. If the place of its origin is really Edessa, as Harnack and others for sound reasons supposed (ibid., p. 176), this would lend considerable probability to the statement, explicitly made in "Acta" (Bonnet, cap. 170, p. 286), that the relics of Apostle Thomas, which we know to have been venerated at Edessa, had really come from the East. The extravagance of the legend may be judged from the fact that in more than one place (cap. 31, p. 148) it represents Thomas (Judas Thomas, as he is called here and elsewhere in Syriac tradition) as the twin brother of Jesus. (emphasis tanya)

I cannot imagine anyone, except Stephan, accepting a second century date for this document of such low repute, that even the Catholic Church disowns its validity. It may indeed have been written in the second, or even the third century, but WHY? What purpose would it have served, until the FOURTH century, when it would have been essential to produce written evidence repudiating Manichaeism, in the area, i.e. Mesopotamia, where the memory of Mani lingered, several decades after the Mesopotamian hero's unjust execution by the hated Persian Emperor. It was Mani, not "Judas" Thomas Didymus, who had traveled to Afghanistan and India.

Do powerful governments lie?

Do powerful governments issue dishonest written documents, texts fervently accepted by the VAST MAJORITY of inhabitants under the government's rule?

:huh:

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 12:23 PM

what is this thread about

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 12:27 PM

I wanted this thread to discuss the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia, otherwise I myself would have again brought up the question of why the gospel writer used the names Mary and Joseph if they knew the Jewish tradition of Miriam and Pandera would be evoked to cast aspersions on the gospels, UNLESS that was the actual intention of one or more authors.
But I didn't.

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 12:29 PM

Read my opening posting as to where Christians and Christianity were supposed to have emerged from in Mesopotamia before the 4th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

what is this thread about

01-11-2013, 10:56 AM	#1
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia We find that accounts of the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia rely on writings of one Bar Hebraeus and accounts in a 10th or 11th encylopedia called Suda, which quotes a historian named Procopius from the 6th century who stated that the Persian king Yazdegerd I legalized the Christian religion in Mesopotamia at the end of the 4th century (which was then revoked by a subsequent ruler). However, we do not find any description of where Christians in Mesopotamia (especially in the major city of Ctesiphon) actually came from or were they were located based on some traditional chronology, i.e. between the 1st and 4th centuries. In the description attributed to Bar Hebraeus or some other unidentified source, the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc. At the beginning of the 5th century a synod in the city of Ctesiphon accepted the Nicene Creed. Around the same time the Talmud was being redacted by Rav Ashi who lived in the Jewish community in Ctesiphon and who had a good relationship with the king and officialdom (which is discussed in the Talmud itself). Yet despite references to the Zoroastrians for some reason there is no reference to Christians in that time when the diocese in Ctesiphon had just ostensibly established according to Procopius etc., presumably for a significantly large "Christian" community, about whose origins virtually nothing is described or claimed to be known.

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01-11-2013, 11:02 AM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Mountainman 2 One of the oldest documents we have from Semitic Christianity is/are the Acts of Judas (called 'the twin'). Please tell me why a fourth century forger would want to make a tradition about Judas - someone who is usually disliked by Christians. Whether or not this is 'Judas Iscariot' (I think it is) the idea of venerating an apostle named Judas seems strange, doesn't it? They could have taken any number of 'invented' names. Why this one? And please don't resurrect your brother's tired old argument about 'parody' and the like.

01-11-2013, 11:49 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If read the Acts of Judas Thomas, you will see a very different kind of Christianity displayed than what you see in the traditional 'Western' Church. I am assuming you doubt the traditional dating of the Acts of Judas Thomas (late second/early third century). I don't see how anyone can doubt that dating. I might even think it is earlier than that. But the general tone of the text is gnostic(al). I don't see any logic reason for falsely manufacturing this narrative which starts with Judas being 'sold' in slavery only to be redeemed.

01-11-2013, 12:23 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	what is this thread about

01-11-2013, 12:27 PM	#9
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I wanted this thread to discuss the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia, otherwise I myself would have again brought up the question of why the gospel writer used the names Mary and Joseph if they knew the Jewish tradition of Miriam and Pandera would be evoked to cast aspersions on the gospels, UNLESS that was the actual intention of one or more authors. But I didn't.

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